The arguement against auto trading is what, exactly?...

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tweedledee111 wrote:

You missed the point entirely.

I don't think I am missing any point. The 'low-value' items you seek are not as abundant in supply, so it will take more time to get ahold of them.

Your Kaom's Heart is in less demand than those onslaught boots. And any item that has less demand, can be gotten easier through trading (given that you have the needed currency). The higher price of a Kaom's Heart keeps the demand in check.

IT is not because Kaom's Heart might yield more power on some builds that it is harder to get ahold of. I know you want to bring an argument against GGG that they don't want powergrowth to go exponential with easy trading. But really?

Your power progression is evaluated on one char and you try to make conclusions? You are comparing apples with oranges.

Apparently you also didn't understand, wich boots i was talking about. I didn't buy "onslaught boots", wich don't exist in Legion and would be a 50 ex plus item. I bought random veiled boots, with stats like "+12 str, +10 armour, 3 life regenerated/sec" in order to unveil them and learn the 4c crafting recipe. Those boots are definitely not "in high demand". Proof: https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/vDKeyXuE


But all that is not the point. I'm fully aware why people are not responding and why it is easier to buy expensive items.

My question is neither "why are people not responding" nor "why is it easier to buy expensive items".


My question is: Is this consequence of the current trading system in line with GGGs intentions as stated in the development manifesto? (In fact i agree with those intentions btw.)

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RPGlitch wrote:

Who knows really. At this point GGG just said they did a lot of testing for trade and everything they tried all failed to do solve their core issues.

In the past, they also said desync is inevitable and everything they tried, failed... despite tons of other online games dint have that issue... Until they fixed it themselves.

Now about current trading. Sadly, it doesnt work as GGG intended either. Trading is too easy, cause players can trade all day without actually playing the game. They can perform gazillion searches and deals. System is very prone to abuse by minority (private indexers, "false offer spam", etc). Even despite we get "fresh start" every 3 months in leagues, prices still get out of control very quickly, and players get great gear in few days from league start...
But for average player, current system takes too much time and nerve, and that's the problem. Not to mention, that players have to use 3-rd party tools for that! And system encourage scamming with false offers! How can one ever think it's GOOD?

At VERY least, they should implement in-game search for items, and eliminate API (which is highly abusable) for 3-rd party sites. That bare minimum doesnt require any "brains" - just copy to your game the thing, already made by others.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

And off the top of my head. I can see why a trade currency might not work, seeing the backlash from picking up nets from bestiary and quarry farming for delve.

That was just a poor implementation of the good idea. When braidead "farming" some "sweet spot" yields more, that mapping.

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tweedledee111 wrote:

No trading at all- fine, i like that. That's clear-cut and simple. No trading for "high-value" stuff - this i would also understand. But "bad trading", wich does NOT slow item progression on the high end, but instead makes low-value trades a pain... sorry, this i don't get.

This.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

In the past, they also said desync is inevitable and everything they tried, failed... despite tons of other online games dint have that issue... Until they fixed it themselves.

You have to give more context here. We still have desyncs.

"

Now about current trading. Sadly, it doesnt work as GGG intended either. Trading is too easy, cause players can trade all day without actually playing the game.

That isn't true.

Trade right now is by no means easy.

For example, even the fastest bot still needs to wait and respond to multiple offers in their hideout. It has to know which person to whisper first, what item they want, and time to find it in the stash.

It also has able to count the trade correctly.

Not to mention a real person who actually has to count and check the prices for all the items in their stash, which is what the game intends for you to do.

Its one of the reasons bots are illegal. It removes a lot of the difficulty the system imposes. All that time, making sure you have the right item, right person, and price.

Bots emulate exactly what an real auction house would do, and the only good thing is that there are a LOT less bots than people in this game.

So that kind of abusive behavior is a lot less harmful than all 100,000 players doing it.

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System is very prone to abuse by minority (private indexers, "false offer spam", etc). Even despite we get "fresh start" every 3 months in leagues, prices still get out of control very quickly, and players get great gear in few days from league start...

Every system is prone to abuse by a minority. What trading system out there doesn't have a few people actively attempting to subvert it?

The difference is whether or not that system is works for the game.

And in PoE, trade works, but can be frustrating.

It can definitely get better, but not through a lot of the dumb suggestions people are making in this thread.

Its like why do you have a speed limit on a highway. Its for safety.

Yet, people in this thread want no speed limits, because they can't understand that 'going too fast' is a bad thing.

Its like a battle of who can be the biggest moron possible.

Let's add rockets to our cars!

Let's all drive sports cars that go 100 mph!

Let's remove all the speed limits!

Let's all drive 100 mph in a school zone!

Its like a bunch of kids who get dumber with each suggestion they make and then complain why GGG isn't listening to them.

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But for average player, current system takes too much time and nerve, and that's the problem. Not to mention, that players have to use 3-rd party tools for that! And system encourage scamming with false offers! How can one ever think it's GOOD?

The average player doesn't care about the current trade.

You aren't even an average player who plays PoE.

The average player who trades may complete one or two trades a day. This is because they only have a few chaos in their stash saved up. They spend a few extra minutes waiting for the person to respond for the few items they want and are finished.

Only those who trade large quantities of items are inconvenienced by the current system.

It becomes an issue if you want to buy multiple items or hundreds of maps for farming. Doing the kind of mass-trading that easily breaks and buckles practically all online games.

If I have to buy 100 maps. And it takes 15-45 seconds for me to whisper, go to their hideout, and get a couple of maps at a time.

This can add up to 30-45 minutes whispering people to get all the required items. It can be even more if people aren't responding to you. This is annoying. This is frustrating.

This is where people are complaining. And on this case, GGG has done an excellent job at ruining the kind of game-breaking behavior that occurs when people try to bulk-trade large quantities of items.

Instead of making hard limits. They just make you feel like shit for doing things that can break the game. Some people get it. Some people don't.

"

At VERY least, they should implement in-game search for items, and eliminate API (which is highly abusable) for 3-rd party sites. That bare minimum doesnt require any "brains" - just copy to your game the thing, already made by others.

Which would defeat the very purpose of trade right now, which is to make sure people don't trade often.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

That was just a poor implementation of the good idea. When braidead "farming" some "sweet spot" yields more, that mapping.

And how is anyone suppose to predict exactly where problems will crop up?

If you have a system that generates trade currency via drops. You will always have issues where the code/reward may interact in a way that allows abusive behavior to occur.

Right now. We have T2 Glacier farming for legion. I can guarantee that wasn't what GGG intended when they put legion, but here it is. You don't even run the map. You hop in for 10 seconds, kill the mechanic, and out. One of the easiest most abusable ways to get drops from the league.

If they put in a trade currency. Whose to say there isn't going to be some map or location where you can spam it consistently and abuse it like quarry farming.

Then you'll get complains from players saying how they had to farm 5 hours of hillock to get all the trade currency they wanted.

I'm simply saying things people think are easy 'fixes' often never turn out that way. There are a lot of issues that come up after you try something. And that's what GGG has told us so far when it comes to trade.

They tried a bunch of things to fix trade, but they all turned out worse then what we have right now. For whatever reason.

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tweedledee111 wrote:

My question is: Is this consequence of the current trading system in line with GGGs intentions as stated in the development manifesto? (In fact i agree with those intentions btw.)

Of course it is in line with their intentions.

And I was aware of your veiled boots. Learn to read between the lines.

when I see these posts all of the time, I guess us console plebs don't really have it so bad. Ya there are some that reject their asking price but it's a lot better than what PC players go through.

There would be really nothing wrong with an AH, just because diablo 3 had it on release and that game was so bad, it doesn't mean that you can't have it in any game. The real money AH is what ruined that.

I really hope this is something GGG never change. Offline trading and an effective AH function will kill the game, and it will be a botting paradise more than it already is.

Ignore the self-entitled whinging, devs. The quiet majority are behind you on this.

prevents rampant automating trading to be honest. I'm fine if it's tied with AH where a seller item is tied into a market at a certain amount of time...and AH getting % of the cut.



BUT WHO CARES WE WANT PLAYER INTERACTION.

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RPGlitch wrote:

You have to give more context here. We still have desyncs.

We have them to the same degree, as in any other online game. At completely acceptable level (if your internet doesnt have issues) - that's the difference.
While before desync was unbearable even with fine internet, causing massive rubber-bandsm that should never happen.

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RPGlitch wrote:

Every system is prone to abuse by a minority. What trading system out there doesn't have a few people actively attempting to subvert it?

Does that means we shouldnt remove as many loopholes and abuses as possible?

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Molochmane wrote:

BUT WHO CARES WE WANT PLAYER INTERACTION.

Everyone seems to come back to this - it hasn't been about that in a very long time.

Ever since the first trade manifesto came out, chris has been on the record (both with that document and with multiple frequent statements in other places) that trade is the single thing that has the largest trivializing effect on the game. They won't balance drops for trade, see diablo 3. They won't remove trade from the game, see diablo 3 RoS. That leaves them purposefully making trade a kind of annoying thing to do, to limit how much trading any person can accomplish.

So far, it's working for them much better than either of blizzard's (very bipolar) approaches.

At least acknowledge the core issue, and there can be an actual discussion.