agree. some of the problems mentioned are connected with the speed (clear speed meta) the game plays nowadays. And the inevitable build guide theme: "what can't hit you, because it's already dead, can't kill you." Because it is also so much more efficient ("chaos per hour").[1]
to introduce legitimately boss mechanics a player has to "outplay" by positioning, reaction, decision making, GGG would have to take out some speed.
don't know how to do that with mobs. some strong mobs have already hard dangerous counters like nullifier.
(4:00) Encourage certain behaviour than discourage.
GGG would have to re-tune every aspect (even if they stay true for not focus on HC). How do you discourage clear speed meta builds? It's not just nerfing movement speed and players potential damage, without affecting the average Joe. You slow down the CuteDog_'s of this game but even more so the average Joe.
But then again, there is this old interview where they say that you can play POE while also watching TV on the side. That idea has to go if you want to resolve the problems mentioned in the video.
Betrayal introduced great mechanics/attacks you can't out DPS one shot nor regen, but have to mechanically get away from. Especially w 2 3 Syndicate members. Because the damage adds up. Also that you have to destroy the totems and stuff spawns.
If they could add some of these new mechanics to every type of mob packs for example with a leader in the pack, that got these special mechanics and buffs his buddies as well, this would be an acceptable soft-break to the clear speed meta. IMHO. A compromise. Make mapping a bit harder and dangerous. That would address to a certain point the "facerolling."
I am not sure how to tackle "Rate War" specifically, but Death Penalty has to stay one way or another.
The rate war (the over-scaling of mob damage and player healing), is the reason for the vanishing window of time that players have to interact with mechanics. Both sides would need to be reduced together. As a crude example, increasing the charge usage of all life flasks while also reducing the damage done by the hardest hitting mob attacks. More generally, reduce the supply of extreme healing methods, while also reducing the demand for them, broadening the time over which players can react to mechanics.
This is my supplemental presentation on the rate war, linked in the description of the of the one in the first post (it's about 8 and a half minutes):
Now you've come to the crux of it, finally. We are at a point now where unsolicited feedback is invited and welcome but *almost never useful*. We're a long way from the beta days when players really did shape the game in some significant (and not always great) ways. This juggernaut of a game's inertia and trajectory now is largely 100% resistant to anything but the broadest feedback, no matter how good it is. I imagine there are some devs themselves who find this frustrating, just as how every company has employees who can see ways to improve the systems but are blocked by various mechanics such as managerial hierarchy and the impact said changes might have on the rest of the machine.
So if TencentGGG aren't doing what you call a 'real official census' asking players for specific, targeted feedback, it's not hard to connect the dots and conclude maybe they feel they just don't need to. We players send them two distinctly conflicting messages: our mouths and fingers say 'this shit is broken, fix it!'; our supporter tags and player concurrency say 'carry on, dudes, great work'.
There IS room between the two for change, but by now, change is very...very slow coming to this chelonian behemoth.
Inertia is a very appropriate word for it. I agree that this is one possible scenario, but keep in mind, the current POE is already the product of many "risky" moves. We unfortunately don't have the data on what would have happened if those risks weren't taken; the best we have are reasoned arguments.
So, how do we know that's it's not even more risky not to tackle these problems? How do they know that our monetary support of the game is to say "keep it up" and not "don't give up"?
I don't see my suggestions as being particularly risky anyways, do you?
When it comes to the inertia of a very thin wheel barreling down a very steep hill, *any* suggestions can be very risky.
TencentGGG haven't done anything even vaguely risky for a while now, even when they have done big, revolutionary things like remove the difficulty repetition or change the Masters altogether. At some point, I'd say in the past three years, they identified not just their user base but within that, the portion of the user base they simply don't want to lose. And while I can't pinpoint that portion, I can say with confidence that it's not who you'd think it would be, who they traditionally said they want to take care of and make feel 'special': the regular and substantial supporters. It's the streamers (and more importantly, their viewers) they don't want to lose, because they're the guys bringing in fresh meat who all need stash tabs if they want to copy their streamers' builds, because to do that you have to trade...
Now I remember when twitch was first integrated into PoE. It was very, very early into the game and well before most other games had considered it. It was certainly the first ARPG to do so. If anything put PoE ahead of D3 at the time, it was that. So this isn't some new phenom or Johnny-come-lately shift. I suspect we were always headed this way, from probably even before the first big streamer, Kripparrian, tried his first beta weekend.
Whether GGG were aware of how much of their vision they'd have to surrender to retain this significant portion of their playerbase...well, that's up for debate. Equally up for debate is whether or not that amount breaches their internal idea of 'too much'. I suspect not -- PoE is a product; TencentGGG is a business. If you identify your actual user base vs the perceived and cater to them, well that's just good business.
In the video linked by RPGnoobANKA earlier in this thread (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8vAGGitr8), examples are given of how players aren't always aware of what makes the game fun for them. I used to call this DvP (developer versus player) where the developer's interest seems to be at odds with the player's interest... but not really.
Streamers might be good for advertising, and have strong influence over their audience's build choices (if their audience actually stops watching the streams and plays the game), but I am entirely unconvinced that the majority of players, even the majority of streamers, see their better interests reflected on Twitch. The most common criticism I hear of POE (streamers included) is the state of face-rolling (or speed meta), but they almost always follow up with "but, nothing can be done about it, because". What if the vast majority of players feel this way?
But, let's assume that the streaming community is a reflection of how players want the game to be. I don't think the baby-steps I proposed would violate it. I'd sooner expect streamers to welcome the changes and take advantage of them than to jump ship. POE can still be "all the things", and not play like an idle game, or a game of Simon, or a second job.
What is an example of a change (to POE) that you wouldn't be able to apply this line of reasoning to?
We always run the risk of unforeseen consequences, nobody is going to dispute that. And I could be wrong about the "baby-steps", but what is an alternative? Doesn't idling carry the same risks?
I want to see GGG win against less ethical competitors.
Last edited by Khalixxa#0534 on Jan 29, 2019, 8:11:10 PM
One more voice, (my voice), may not be enough to make any change, but I'll let it be thrown into the mix anyways.
[...] It's a great game, I LOVE THIS GAME, but the success of this game may be it's biggest hindrance. People are passionate and love this game and are quick to rush to it's defense at even the slightest bit of criticism. I love this game in spite of everything that the OP talked about in his video. That doesn't mean that there aren't serious problems that shouldn't be addressed.
I use to buy supporter packs on a regular basis, and on one hand I think nearly all of the changes that betrayal brought to the game are great. The new masters,the crafting, the way Zana sells more maps, the game just feels better and I would love to support the game and say "Hey great job guys", and pick up another supporter pack, but,....there is a lingering in my gut that says, NO, you can't do that, you can't keep buying supporter packs when some major core game issues, that you are not happy with are still left unchecked.
If you want to go even deeper on a sociological level, you can also describe that every player has an extrinsically deterministic affiliation of psychological nature based on "gamer", "I play POE." A common denominator shared with a group. This belongingness is of psychological origin. And with sociology and psychology together comes deep shit, things explained in Stan Culture. Or current fringes of politics.
And that it is a "live service"/constantly evolving game and growing gaming (with growing pains) makes it much difficult -vs- 2000s. Release it, work on an addon. Then may work on the sequel.
