The burden of proof shifts back and forth based on which party has met their prior burden. If this weren't the case, one party could unilaterally paralyze a debate (which people try to do all the time).
I'm sure you're familiar with the "status quo bias" or "appeal to the status quo" in which someone never acknowledges a shift of the burden of proof. There is no initial burden of proof for status quo argument like there is for "innocent until proven guilty". You might be confusing a "status quo" position for a "default" position. Status quos must carry themselves just like their challenges must.
A good answer to the question I asked would help the status quo argument, refusing to answer it would hurt it.
Nobody is denying that we need penalties for this or that purpose (challenge, conditioning and thrill), but we must be able to talk about what our standards are for a penalty, based on its impact on the rest of the game. Penalties don't exist in a vacuum, and that's why I needed to address each of the three topics together (face-rolling, rate wars and death penalty) and their reinforcement of each other.
I posed a question in the middle of the "rant" about death penalties basically asking "if you think the death penalty is fine, what is your rationale for not increasing it". This is, of course, the beginning of an inductive argument where I would then ask, "well, why doesn't this also apply to the current one".
I am trying to force people to realize that penalties don't just exist for their own sake, and that we should be just as skeptical of them as for all the other problems with the game.
You haven't built a consensus agreeing that the death penalties are a problem. My rationale for not increasing or decreasing death penalties is that they are "fine" (good, satisfactory). I don't need any other reason.
There will never be consensus on such a topic. But he made some really good points regarding in-game penalties, especially in the video linked in the description of the criticism video.
Those points are worth discussing and it does not help anyone (least of all GGG) if people keep trying to stifle that discussion. Maybe a good suggestion does crop up.
My take on the current DP:
It neatly fulfills its main purpose: Make people add at least some defense into their build. It also does this in a very simple to implement and easy to understand way.
So far, so good.
But it has negative side-effects, too. And they should be worked on. It is simply incredibly annoying to lose (for average players) hours worth of grinding to a single bug, a ridiculous spike of bad luck (too many damage multipliers rolling unlucky at once) an internet lag or a sneeze at the wrong time, or even just a moment of failing attention after hours of mindlessly boring grind. I have been playing since closed beta and literally the only times I cut a gaming session short and stop for the day is a death I consider unfair. And there are many opportunities for fatal damage bursts with all the damage multipliers added since this game started. Add to that the ever increasing gfx vomit covering subtle clues and occasional bugs and the game engine is simply not programmed well enough to be allowed to be "unforgiving".
Plus, the current DP fails at its most important task: It does not teach you anything positive. The only thing one can learn from it is to
- avoid situations where too many damage multipliers could stack up (i.e. play non-challenging content).
- study up on the currently OP defense mechanic (or just follow a build guide) which allows you to ignore any game mechanics. What is the point of them then?
- stop playing
It specifically does not teach you how you could have survived that situation.
For sure, there must be mechanisms in the game which prevent you from progressing if you're not building your character well or have two left hands full of thumbs. There should also be mechanics which prevent zerging bosses. But the current DP fulfils the first part only in obvious cases and the second not at all. And it is annoying enough to most likely be the cause of many a person leaving this game.
So if anyone tries to start a conversation on how to change the DP into a mechanism which fulfills its purposes and has better side effects, do not stop the conversation! Rather try to think of ways that you believe it could be improved.
An ideal DP would
- make players balance defense vs offense in their character. The current DP does this.
- allow beating hard content only once they've learned the "basics" needed at this stage in the game. The DP does not do this.
- make you feel good for beating hard content which you failed at previously. The DP sort of does this.
It specifically should not be a punishment for punishment's sake, it should be a road block until you improve. And it certainly should not discourage you from running content which actually challenges you.
The current DP would also be fine if some other parameters of the game were different. Like less gfx vomit, slower fights in general so one can react, no instant logout so damage spikes can be brought down to manageable levels, less reliance on a permanently fantastic internet connection, etc... But while none of these parameters change, the current DP is actually pretty lousy.
Now try to solve the design ridle made by GGG.
The riddle goes as follows:
GGG give you possiblity to enter the area 6 times. Why 6 and not 1?
PoE is a multiplayer game, end of the riddle.
Then why not a portal for each player in the party?
we already have this implemented in zana quests.
you start with 6 portals from your ho because you can add players to your party after you open the map.
There will never be consensus on such a topic. But he made some really good points regarding in-game penalties, especially in the video linked in the description of the criticism video.
Those points are worth discussing and it does not help anyone (least of all GGG) if people keep trying to stifle that discussion. Maybe a good suggestion does crop up.
My take on the current DP:
It neatly fulfills its main purpose: Make people add at least some defense into their build. It also does this in a very simple to implement and easy to understand way.
So far, so good.
But it has negative side-effects, too. And they should be worked on. It is simply incredibly annoying to lose (for average players) hours worth of grinding to a single bug, a ridiculous spike of bad luck (too many damage multipliers rolling unlucky at once) an internet lag or a sneeze at the wrong time, or even just a moment of failing attention after hours of mindlessly boring grind. I have been playing since closed beta and literally the only times I cut a gaming session short and stop for the day is a death I consider unfair. And there are many opportunities for fatal damage bursts with all the damage multipliers added since this game started. Add to that the ever increasing gfx vomit covering subtle clues and occasional bugs and the game engine is simply not programmed well enough to be allowed to be "unforgiving".
Plus, the current DP fails at its most important task: It does not teach you anything positive. The only thing one can learn from it is to
- avoid situations where too many damage multipliers could stack up (i.e. play non-challenging content).
- study up on the currently OP defense mechanic (or just follow a build guide) which allows you to ignore any game mechanics. What is the point of them then?
- stop playing
It specifically does not teach you how you could have survived that situation.
For sure, there must be mechanisms in the game which prevent you from progressing if you're not building your character well or have two left hands full of thumbs. There should also be mechanics which prevent zerging bosses. But the current DP fulfils the first part only in obvious cases and the second not at all. And it is annoying enough to most likely be the cause of many a person leaving this game.
So if anyone tries to start a conversation on how to change the DP into a mechanism which fulfills its purposes and has better side effects, do not stop the conversation! Rather try to think of ways that you believe it could be improved.
An ideal DP would
- make players balance defense vs offense in their character. The current DP does this.
- allow beating hard content only once they've learned the "basics" needed at this stage in the game. The DP does not do this.
- make you feel good for beating hard content which you failed at previously. The DP sort of does this.
It specifically should not be a punishment for punishment's sake, it should be a road block until you improve. And it certainly should not discourage you from running content which actually challenges you.
The current DP would also be fine if some other parameters of the game were different. Like less gfx vomit, slower fights in general so one can react, no instant logout so damage spikes can be brought down to manageable levels, less reliance on a permanently fantastic internet connection, etc... But while none of these parameters change, the current DP is actually pretty lousy.
I wasn't trying to stifle anything. I simply let the op know that their argument was not convincing to me, and I saw no reason to change something I think is fine as it is. That is just as valuable as feedback. I am not going to sit here and debate the definition of fine, as I already gave it.
If a system is fine to me, then why should I argue against change when I don't see it as necessary or desirable?
Last edited by Xtorma#4606 on Jan 19, 2019, 6:02:57 PM
There will never be consensus on such a topic. But he made some really good points regarding in-game penalties, especially in the video linked in the description of the criticism video.
Those points are worth discussing and it does not help anyone (least of all GGG) if people keep trying to stifle that discussion. Maybe a good suggestion does crop up.
My take on the current DP:
It neatly fulfills its main purpose: Make people add at least some defense into their build. It also does this in a very simple to implement and easy to understand way.
So far, so good.
But it has negative side-effects, too. And they should be worked on. It is simply incredibly annoying to lose (for average players) hours worth of grinding to a single bug, a ridiculous spike of bad luck (too many damage multipliers rolling unlucky at once) an internet lag or a sneeze at the wrong time, or even just a moment of failing attention after hours of mindlessly boring grind. I have been playing since closed beta and literally the only times I cut a gaming session short and stop for the day is a death I consider unfair. And there are many opportunities for fatal damage bursts with all the damage multipliers added since this game started. Add to that the ever increasing gfx vomit covering subtle clues and occasional bugs and the game engine is simply not programmed well enough to be allowed to be "unforgiving".
Plus, the current DP fails at its most important task: It does not teach you anything positive. The only thing one can learn from it is to
- avoid situations where too many damage multipliers could stack up (i.e. play non-challenging content).
- study up on the currently OP defense mechanic (or just follow a build guide) which allows you to ignore any game mechanics. What is the point of them then?
- stop playing
It specifically does not teach you how you could have survived that situation.
For sure, there must be mechanisms in the game which prevent you from progressing if you're not building your character well or have two left hands full of thumbs. There should also be mechanics which prevent zerging bosses. But the current DP fulfils the first part only in obvious cases and the second not at all. And it is annoying enough to most likely be the cause of many a person leaving this game.
So if anyone tries to start a conversation on how to change the DP into a mechanism which fulfills its purposes and has better side effects, do not stop the conversation! Rather try to think of ways that you believe it could be improved.
An ideal DP would
- make players balance defense vs offense in their character. The current DP does this.
- allow beating hard content only once they've learned the "basics" needed at this stage in the game. The DP does not do this.
- make you feel good for beating hard content which you failed at previously. The DP sort of does this.
It specifically should not be a punishment for punishment's sake, it should be a road block until you improve. And it certainly should not discourage you from running content which actually challenges you.
The current DP would also be fine if some other parameters of the game were different. Like less gfx vomit, slower fights in general so one can react, no instant logout so damage spikes can be brought down to manageable levels, less reliance on a permanently fantastic internet connection, etc... But while none of these parameters change, the current DP is actually pretty lousy.
I wasn't trying to stifle anything. I simply let the op know that their argument was not convincing to me, and I saw no reason to change something I think is fine as it is. That is just as valuable as feedback. I am not going to sit here and debate the definition of fine, as I already gave it.
If a system is fine to me, then why should I argue against change when I don't see it as necessary or desirable?
Point taken. You have no obligation to argue.
If what you're saying is "I'm not convinced", it's just a courtesy to explain what would convince you. I'm sure you understand.
People just ignore any points made about how the DP system doesn't work as well as it should, while also saying that you haven't shown the current system has issues.
Its always been this way and it probably always will be.
(Not sure if I'm referring to the DP, or the discussion of the DP here.)
