What nugiyen is doing right now is amazing

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Charan wrote:

positive thread

hahahahaha this guy

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VolcanoElixir wrote:

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Let's start talking about distances instead of "ranged" and "melee".

Can I just call it AoE instead of distance? Since that's what a lot of them are.

Thats how sweep is, but cleave, ground slam and lightning strike have a much longer distance beyond the reach of the weapons used.

Sweep is a genuine AoE melee skill as it is only striking within the weapons natural range, but cleave has some kind of extra invisible / magical range added to it, so its really not a melee skill, its a short ranged AoE skill.

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TremorAcePV wrote:

For example, Cleaved, in Nugiyen's case, might seem ranged to some people, but I constitute it as melee as long as it can't do what norml ranged abilities and such can do. It's sort of a grey area, but eh. I'll stick with calling that "melee". And anything shorter range than that, melee as well.

Its not really a gray area. Its been confirmed that cleave has an additional range of +20 beyond the regular 'melee hit range' for skills like dual strike, heavy strike, flicker strike, heavy strike etc.

It definitely gives you an additional range advantage because it lets you hit melee enemies without them being able to hit you back, so you can use hit and run tactics with it without taking any damage.

This is also another reason why its not a genuine melee skill, because it puts you far outside of the enemies melee hit range.

All this makes cleave a very safe and easy skill to use compared to genuine melee skills that put you in a lot of danger of taking attacks from the monsters.

I want to offer an alternate view on melee. We're not all the same.

To me, playing melee means using melee weapons. I want my attacks to feel thematic and impactful in the context of how these weapons look and roughly work. (It's more important to be believable than realistic.) So I want to hack, slash, bash and poke as appropriate. However I'm not particularly hassled by the actual range. Sending out supernatural effects (cutting wind, ground tremors) that could happen in a magical world is fine.

In fact, I want to have some range if possible. Area of effect abilities especially have very little coverage if they are restricted next to the character. At the same time I recognize that in order to be thematic and to offer variety the melee moves are generally going to be shorter ranged. I like going right up to something to deliver that big smack too. I expect increased damage and/or utility in return and the game does deliver this. Melee has better skill damage, better damage supports, and mobility skills that are not usable with ranged weapons.

Within the limitations of the game's animation engine, I think the current skills deliver quite well. There's a lot of micro desync in this game however and it feels worse with the shortest range attacks. Not to mention the bigger cases of desync that happen more when moving around a lot (while being hit by cc) and around collision objects like monsters.

While the implementation will no doubt be tweaked, the design does feel good. For adjustments, desync and survivability balance are far more important than the skills themselves - though adding the missing abilities for certain purposes and weapons is good of course.

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bhavv wrote:

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VolcanoElixir wrote:

"

Let's start talking about distances instead of "ranged" and "melee".

Can I just call it AoE instead of distance? Since that's what a lot of them are.

Thats how sweep is, but cleave, ground slam and lightning strike have a much longer distance beyond the reach of the weapons used.

Sweep is a genuine AoE melee skill as it is only striking within the weapons natural range, but cleave has some kind of extra invisible / magical range added to it, so its really not a melee skill, its a short ranged AoE skill.

Sweep and Cleave have the same radius (range). You're probably looking at a modified Cleave vs a Sweep.

Also, it seems that there's a lot of people here talking about "genuine melee skills" without actually having played melee or paid attention when doing so.

I was not asking what was constituted as AoE or not AoE, I was asking if it would simply be better to say "AoE" instead of "distance" because most skills in the game have a cone effect that affects width and not just a straight distance.

I still think it's ridiculous to write off the vast majority of a Melee character's skillset because people have seen success with them and now everyone wants to delegitimize the success by writing them off as "not real melee" or "the same as playing a ranged character."

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Pinchyskree wrote:

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bhavv wrote:

I also don't understand the point of praising / worshipping people just because they stream videos, but whatever. Discussions are never meant to be one sided, people will always have different opinions to you whether you like them or not.

Neither do I, if I spent 16+ hours a day on this game what he's doing now would be mediocre. Can't understand why anyone is going out of their way to suck his cock.

So what makes a pro gamer different from a pro football player, I like watching both, is respecting one culturally accepted, but respecting the other is not? What if what nugiyen is doing something similar to a pro chess player like bobby fisher? Does that make it more ok to respect? Your a diamond supporter too, which tells me you have some love/respect for video games, but you seem so adamant about dissing a pro gamer? All in all, I think pro gamers do deserve some respect, I believe there are only a hand full of people in the world that can play games at such a high level, and I would bet a lot of money that your not one of them, even if you did practice 16 hours a day.

some guys here seem to confuse ranged/melee/physical/AoE in all the ways possible.

for example as i played melee/physical in cb and now witch.

i think everyone agrees that frost nova can be considered a ranged attack.

now what if the range of cleave (which is considered melee here) exceeds the range of my frost nova? doesn't that mean frost nova is melee now? (note: not talking bout physical)

what i wanted to show in short is that ranged <=> melee has nothing to do with the skills you use rather than the playstyle of yours. (in general; note: there might be restrictions to specific skills)

For me, melee is defined as the range that enemies need to reach you with their physical attack! NOT vice versa!

Troll post /delete

Only read the first 3 pages, haven't seen what nugi's doing yet cause the stream is currently down.
But if he's been manmoding the 1 week race to maps that's really impressive. Job well done!

I'm currently playing a 65 facebreaker in act 3 but I recently decided to stray away from infernal blow and using dominating blow now, just because it is SO MUCH safer and also faster to clear areas because of all the additional damage sponges/sources you get.

Alros, you can still watch his recorded videos.

Thats impressive!

But, what I dont understand is, his Cleave slashes the air with his tiny dagger, and the mobs die. Hilarious! Almost cartoony.

I feel the slash effect should be extended as well to compensate for that!

Addit:

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bhavv wrote:

Can I just call it AoE instead of distance? Since that's what a lot of them are.

Thats how sweep is, but cleave, ground slam and lightning strike have a much longer distance beyond the reach of the weapons used.

Sweep is a genuine AoE melee skill as it is only striking within the weapons natural range, but cleave has some kind of extra invisible / magical range added to it, so its really not a melee skill, its a short ranged AoE skill.


Its not really a gray area. Its been confirmed that cleave has an additional range of +20 beyond the regular 'melee hit range' for skills like dual strike, heavy strike, flicker strike, heavy strike etc.

It definitely gives you an additional range advantage because it lets you hit melee enemies without them being able to hit you back, so you can use hit and run tactics with it without taking any damage.

This is also another reason why its not a genuine melee skill, because it puts you far outside of the enemies melee hit range.

All this makes cleave a very safe and easy skill to use compared to genuine melee skills that put you in a lot of danger of taking attacks from the monsters.

I understand Bhavv have been ragged earlier in this thread, but after seeing the video, i'm apt to agree with his opinion. I'm putting it in the ranged category. Its short-ranged, not long ranged, ie spells and bows.

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Hilbert wrote:

The damage is weapon based but still it's like a small ranged Freezing Pulse+LMP not real melee skill.

Heavy Strike, Flicker Strike, Double Strike, Glacial Hammer, Dual Strike are real melee skills.

Yes, that's what Cleave feels like to me.

On the label it does say Melee and AOE, so melee mechanics would effect the gem. Yeah a debatable topic this.