What nugiyen is doing right now is amazing

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redrach wrote:

Why is everyone bringing up AoE? A skill being melee has nothing to do with how many targets it hits, and everything to do with its range.
You could have a skill where your character rapidly hits every target around him once (aka Zeal from D2) and it'd still be melee.

And by range we're obviously talking about range > range of your melee weapon. Anything that allows you to attack out of the melee range of enemies is a ranged ability.

So a skill that relocates the player around the screen to hit multiple mobs in a row is considered melee? How is that different from ranged? Slow hard hitting mobs like zombies will never be able to hit you.

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bhavv wrote:

'Cheating' may have been the wrong word to use, but its definitely unfair play.

How is it unfair play if it's available for everyone to use? The developers have said it's working as intended.

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bhavv wrote:

Alt-f4 is absolutely not 'a part of the game' nor does it have anything to do with its rules.

Its a 'part of windows' thats lets you immediately close, and in this case chicken out of the game.

You're right, but Esc>Logout is a part of the game and was specifically designed by the developers to not have a timer when used in any situation.

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bhavv wrote:

It seems that GGG's proposed workaround to this issue was to increase the melee range at least for dualists so far, so rather than fixing the insane amount of damage dealt by the monsters, they just give 'melee' characters / builds an option to add extra range to their attacks so they can safely hit things without taking any hits back from the monsters.

This is basically a lazy workaround and means that 'melee' now becomes 'ranged' attacks instead.

It's not a workaround for anything. The devs have said that improvements to melee are coming later. Don't call them lazy if you don't know what's going on.

Also what do you mean by "fixing the insane amount of damage dealt by the monsters"? Do mean mean nerfing the game so it's easier?

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bhavv wrote:

Sweep is a genuine AoE melee skill as it is only striking within the weapons natural range, but cleave has some kind of extra invisible / magical range added to it, so its really not a melee skill, its a short ranged AoE skill.

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bhavv wrote:

The idea of 'melee' combat in games is standing next to an opponent and swinging your weapon at it. You can swing at multiple opponents near you as cleave and sweep do in PoE, and this is still melee.

However, some people now think that cleave's additional range no longer makes it a melee attack as its attack reach extends beyond 'close-quarter fighting'.

The reason why 'melee' skills are not working in PoE is that you stand in range of the enemies melee attacks too. When the enemies can hit you, you die fast in this game because they deal too much damage on merciless and end game maps.

Think of all the slow zombies and skeletons that people like farming for EXP. They farm these using attacks that can safely kill them with additional range so that the slow moving enemies cannot strike back. If you actually tried standing right next to the opponents and hitting them with something like Dual Strike, you would die in a few hits with how much damage they deal. Especially the guards in Act 3 merc battlefront and barracks, those deal tremendous damage that will kill you in no time if you get too close to them.

How is sweep considered a "genuine AoE melee skill" if you can hit mobs (like zombies) outside of the mobs range to hit you back?

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Atraps003 wrote:

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redrach wrote:

Why is everyone bringing up AoE? A skill being melee has nothing to do with how many targets it hits, and everything to do with its range.
You could have a skill where your character rapidly hits every target around him once (aka Zeal from D2) and it'd still be melee.

And by range we're obviously talking about range > range of your melee weapon. Anything that allows you to attack out of the melee range of enemies is a ranged ability.

So a skill that relocates the player around the screen to hit multiple mobs in a row is considered melee? How is that different from ranged? Slow hard hitting mobs like zombies will never be able to hit you.

I'm guessing you haven't played D2, but Zeal doesn't relocate you like that (sounds like Flicker Strike). It just makes you hit every monster in melee range around you. Imagine Double Strike's 2-hits-in-one functionality, but replace 2 by 5 and instead of it always hitting one monster it divides the hits among everything around you in melee range.

And even a skill that rapidly relocates you around is still more "melee" than Lightning Strike, etc. Slow-moving zombies might not be able to hit you, but faster melee ones will.

many ppl werent grouping increased area cleave with gslam and lightning strike until it was brought into attention by a streamer. if anything, this reveals that there are still many interactions that can be brought to light. sure he might not have proven that melee is viable to everyone, but at least he publically proved that you can do your research and come up with a build that can get to end game. many complain that there are the only few widely know builds that are easy to play and can get to end game. nugi's presentation is evidence that there are still many solid builds to be shown. sure, there are weaker mechanics that prevent certain builds to be viable end game, but one can't be blind to the many other possibilities.

as for what constitutes as melee, that really comes down to opinion. most of you know that, but are completely incapable of letting other have thiers. the whole "what is/isn't melee" argument doesnt help at all. if you believe melee sucks cuz heavy strike is the only attack you want to use and isnt viable as the only attack, then you should probably open a discussion as to why it sucks that way and how to make it better. if you can communicate more specifically, your problems can be adressed much better.

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RockHardAndReady wrote:

I honestly think it'd be nice for there to be NO moderation for a week, just so people could see the difference mods are making, but that'd create other problems.

I don't think any of us have the intestinal fortitude to withstand that.


Is there any actual discussion going on in this thread or is it still people try to find something to argue about?

I despise any topic that can be summed up with "This thing, but <streamer> did it" since half the conversation gets completely derailed by streamer conversation instead of the actual topic. Likewise, any time the discussion reduces to personal opinion on what is and is not "melee" or "hardcore" or any other vague qualifier, it just goes to hell.

A number of people in this thread have been warned, multiple times, to at least attempt to stay on topic and avoid calling others stupid and childish (and other dismissive labels). Others have been probated and keep coming back. It's nothing short of a duck hunt, and it's pathetic.