please end mystery boxes (loot boxes, glorified gambling)

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

This is an explicit request from the OP to stop derailing the thread, which you (and a couple others) continue to ignore.

You're not wrong. I've apologised to the OP for the off-topic posts I've created here. I've been a part of the actual topic of the thread as well though and I've made multiple requests to stay on topic myself.

I speak when spoken to, that's how I was raised. No disrespect intended.

As far as I'm concerned though, the off-topic discussion has concluded.

"

Xavathos wrote:

"Faster" is vague. How fast? How much difference does it make? Does it even make a difference? "A train is faster than a boat." is essentially what you're saying, which isn't necessarily true at all. I can put an item up for sale on forums as fast as I can do it in-game. All it takes is a quick alt-tab and a copy/paste combo and it's up for sale, even showing on said websites.

Like I said, you can do everything a paying player can as a free player. No content, power or services are behind a paywall, there is no P2W here. The fact that you may be a forum slowpoke, doesn't make your argument a fact.

Faster is not vague. It is faster no matter how you try to spin it. You simply cannot do it any faster than via a tab.
Premise 1 is still true.

"

Xavathos wrote:

There's one giant flaw in this logic. Where do you get the items from and how does having more stash tabs affect this? In order to sell anything at all, you'd have to obtain it first and stash tabs have absolutely nothing to do with that as far as I can see.

To compare this to RMT is... I don't even... RMT is against the rules, stash tabs have nothing to do with that.

The error in logic is on your part. That you have to obtain an item first does not mean that you cannot get advantages after obtaining it. If you could buy an effect that made your chaos orbs roll higher tier mods that would certianly be an advantage even if you have to obtain it first.

I am not "comparing" tabs to "illegal" RMT 1:1. I am saying that if currency from a shop is an advantage then currency from trades must also be an avantage. The advantage you are paying for is to get and leverage the trade currency faster.

Premise 2 is still true.

"

Xavathos wrote:

That's like saying renting storage space is illegal, because it could be used to store contraband.

Nothing of what I am saying is even remotely close to that, so I suggest you reread my posts until you see that.

"

Xavathos wrote:

Yes, and I totally agree that paying for an advantage is P2W, as stated above. The advantage here, however, exists only in your head. In your opinion this is a fact. If this is all you've got to say, then your argument has no validation to me.

Good, so the argument is valid and all the premises remain true. The only reasonable conclusion is that tabs are P2W.

"

Xavathos wrote:

Again, I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your argument. That's not ad hominem, I suggest you look up the definition if you think otherwise. I have no problems with you at all and finally you've answered what I've been asking for all this time. Even though you couldn't convince me this time, thank you for at least being part of the discussion. No hard feelings here.

Now you attacked the argument, and I appreciate that. However the previous posts were nothing but ad hominem. Everything I said in the previous post had been said at least 2 times already, so your narrative that I am a troll with no "acutal argument" etc was pure ad hominem. Don't go back there.

"

Sickness wrote:

"

vio wrote:

i make more currency selling one kaoms heart or a headhunter over a forum entry than you selling crap over 100 quad tabs.

in fact i'm even better off cause i play the game while you wait in the hideout to serve those buyers.

this is my last post here.

I make currency faster selling one kaoms heart with a stash tab than you selling it over a forum entry.

The options are not "buy tabs and waste time selling crap" vs "Don't buy tabs and only sell efficiently". That is a blatantly false dichotomy. The relevant comparison is "buy tabs and sell efficiently" vs "Don't buy tabs and sell efficiently". In that case buying the tabs does give you an advantage.

it's overkill to buy a premium tab to sell a kaoms. a forum entry is sufficient.
putting it into the trade system is maybe 10 seconds longer with forum posts.

premiums are an advantage if you sell alot of cheap items which you don't do if you use the trade forum.

do i really need to tell you, you're playing the game wrong if you try to sell alot of crap and waste portals waiting for buyers?

premium tabs are a means to play the game in a ineffective slow way. a way where you're not winning but just wasting time micromnaging things. a way i intentionally chose to play, haven't even killed shaper yet. and paid dearly for it.

"

vio wrote:

it's overkill to buy a premium tab to sell a kaoms. a forum entry is sufficient.
putting it into the trade system is maybe 10 seconds longer with forum posts.

premiums are an advantage if you sell alot of cheap items which you don't do if you use the trade forum.

do i really need to tell you, you're playing the game wrong if you try to sell alot of crap and waste portals waiting for buyers?

premium tabs are a means to play the game in a ineffective slow way. a way where you're not winning but just wasting time micromnaging things. a way i intentionally chose to play, haven't even killed shaper yet. and paid dearly for it.

You post the same strawman over and over. That you can come up with a situtation where the tabs are not an advantage does not mean that they are never an advantage. Everytime I point out an advantage it conveniently doesn't count for one reason or another.

"

Sickness wrote:

Faster is not vague. It is faster no matter how you try to spin it. You simply cannot do it any faster than via a tab.
Premise 1 is still true.

Nope. It is vague and untrue based on my personal experience, which is the most reliable source for me to base my opinion on.

"

Sickness wrote:

The error in logic is on your part. That you have to obtain an item first does not mean that you cannot get advantages after obtaining it. If you could buy an effect that made your chaos orbs roll higher tier mods that would certianly be an advantage even if you have to obtain it first.

I am not "comparing" tabs to "illegal" RMT 1:1. I am saying that if currency from a shop is an advantage then currency from trades must also be an avantage. The advantage you are paying for is to get and leverage the trade currency faster.

Premise 2 is still true.

Premise 2 relies on premise 1 being true, a fallacy on its own, which defaults my answer to... Nope.

"

Sickness wrote:

Good, so the argument is valid and all the premises remain true. The only reasonable conclusion is that tabs are P2W.

Nope.

"

Sickness wrote:

Now you attacked the argument, and I appreciate that. However the previous posts were nothing but ad hominem. Everything I said in the previous post had been said at least 2 times already, so your narrative that I am a troll with no "acutal argument" etc was pure ad hominem. Don't go back there.

Bro, you've been dancing around the point as much as you've been dancing around the freaking topic of the thread. The only motive behind my posts which you call personal attacks have been nothing more but repeated requests to have you back up your bold claims, to have a discussion, rather than a lecture.



The conclusion here is that you have an opinion, one you have expressed explicitly, which you claim to be fact but were unable to provide the required evidence to solidify. You are absolutely entitled to think stash tabs are P2W, you are absolutely entitled to express this, but seeing as we're just exchanging opinions here, I strongly disagree with you. End of story.

Now back to the topic at hand, Mystery boxes. :)

"

Xavathos wrote:

Nope. It is vague and untrue based on my personal experience, which is the most reliable source for me to base my opinion on.

10 pages ago you said:

"

Xavathos wrote:

Everyone knows special tabs save you time, that's their entire purpose.

Will you stop the flip-floping or will you claim that this is a "false quotation"?
You are starting to really disgust me.

"

Xavathos wrote:

Premise 2 relies on premise 1 being true, a fallacy on its own, which defaults my answer to... Nope.

That is another logical error. Premise 2 does not rely on premise 1 in ANY way.

Premise 1: Buying tabs allow you to sell items faster.
Premise 2: Selling items faster is an advantage.

The second premise can be true or false regardless of the truth value of the first premise.

"

Xavathos wrote:

Bro, you've been dancing around the point as much as you've been dancing around the freaking topic of the thread. The only motive behind my posts which you call personal attacks have been nothing more but repeated requests to have you back up your bold claims, to have a discussion, rather than a lecture.

All my claims have been backed up and explained repeatedly. However I am not going to do so in every post on every page.
Like I said, the post where you said I "finally" answered was just an amalgamation of things I had posted numerous times before. It contained no new information. I accept your apology.

"

Sickness wrote:

"

vio wrote:

it's overkill to buy a premium tab to sell a kaoms. a forum entry is sufficient.
putting it into the trade system is maybe 10 seconds longer with forum posts.

premiums are an advantage if you sell alot of cheap items which you don't do if you use the trade forum.

do i really need to tell you, you're playing the game wrong if you try to sell alot of crap and waste portals waiting for buyers?

premium tabs are a means to play the game in a ineffective slow way. a way where you're not winning but just wasting time micromnaging things. a way i intentionally chose to play, haven't even killed shaper yet. and paid dearly for it.

You post the same strawman over and over. That you can come up with a situtation where the tabs are not an advantage does not mean that they are never an advantage. Everytime I point out an advantage it conveniently doesn't count for one reason or another.

i do think your points also count. and i wouldn't call it "strawman" but "examples of different views what winning means in poe".

tabs are an advantage for players of a certain playstyle: to win the game by exploiting the economy.


but it's just one way to "win the game" according to your definition. for me, ending a game with 10 mirrors isn't winning the game, it's just amassing currency to be able to brag around.

you need much less than that to win the game according to my definition: "dress up one char and beat all bosses that the game". you can achieve that without additional stash tabs but with cleverness, skill and knowledge.


(really my last post here ;)

"

vio wrote:

i do think your points also count. and i wouldn't call it "strawman" but "examples of different views what winning means in poe".

tabs are an advantage for players of a certain playstyle: to win the game by exploiting the economy.


but it's just one way to "win the game" according to your definition. for me, ending a game with 10 mirrors isn't winning the game, it's just amassing currency to be able to brag around.

you need much less than that to win the game according to my definition: "dress up one char and beat all bosses that the game". you can achieve that without additional stash tabs but with cleverness, skill and knowledge.


(really my last post here ;)

Let's say they sold currency or damage boosters in your store. You could still achieve your win condition even without buying any of it, all it takes is cleverness, skill and knowledge. Would that mean that the sold currency or damage boosters were not P2W?
If it is then you are changing your definition, and we need to reevaluate if the tabs are P2W under this new definition.
If it isn't then your definition of the term P2W is meaningless and they could sell essentially anything and it still wouldn't be P2W by your definition.

Do you see the problem with your position?
Do one more post to clear this up.

"

Sickness wrote:

10 pages ago you said:

"

Xavathos wrote:

Everyone knows special tabs save you time, that's their entire purpose.

Will you stop the flip-floping or will you claim that this is a "false quotation"?
You are starting to really disgust me.

Hitting a nerve, am I? You'd have a good point here, had you not taken my words out of context and twisted them to your favour. Such a low thing to do really, and so absolutely pointless. Context is so very important when quoting people. You should know that.

When I said that it was in a response to someone talking about special tabs, currency, essence, map, fragments etc. Those tabs don't serve the same function normal tabs do. Their sole purpose is one born from quality of life, the ease of function, to save time micromanaging your stash. I'm not denying that I'm greatly enjoying their added benefit.

That does not, however, mean that it is therefor strictly P2W. They still provide no actual ability to do anything that you wouldn't be able to do with your default stash tabs, they just make it more convenient, or not, that's open to personal preference. I know a few people who don't like them at all and prefer the freedom of normal tabs to sort your loot your own way. So for them it would be pay to lose then? So it's only sometimes P2W?

The problem we're facing, you and me, lies simply in your definition of advantage. If you qualify convenience (quality of life) as advantage, then not just stash tabs are P2W, most things are. Is ordering pizza P2W? Would it not be P2W if you picked it up yourself? Isn't it P2W if you make it yourself but buy the ingredients? Imagine the time you saved!

Where does convenience end and P2W begin in your mind? Isn't Pyre Knight armour set P2W too with the new lighting? It clearly illuminates your immediate surrounding that a normal armour may not. That's an advantage, right? What about skill effects that make crits or ailments more visible? P2W? You do need a graphics card capable of running DirectX 11 though, otherwise you'd be out of luck. P2W?

Do you see what your way of thinking opens up in my mind? The possibilities are endless and if you're willing to break that barrier, almost everything in life is P2W.

I think it's an interesting thought from a philosophical standpoint. I still disagree though, but you probably gathered that by now. :)

"

Sickness wrote:

That is another logical error. Premise 2 does not rely on premise 1 in ANY way.

Premise 1: Buying tabs allow you to sell items faster.
Premise 2: Selling items faster is an advantage.

The second premise can be true or false regardless of the truth value of the first premise.

Okay, you're right. That's technically true if you're willing to seperate them both, look at the statement only and not the defining context you posted below both, which I was addressing in the first place. By Dominus, I'm not going to argue this one with you though, we could still be here by Christmas 2029.

"

Sickness wrote:

I accept your apology.

A weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

TOPIC, bro, TOPIC. Caja misteriosa.

"

Xavathos wrote:

The problem we're facing, you and me, lies simply in your definition of advantage. If you qualify convenience (quality of life) as advantage, then not just stash tabs are P2W, most things are. Is ordering pizza P2W? Would it not be P2W if you picked it up yourself? Isn't it P2W if you make it yourself but buy the ingredients? Imagine the time you saved!

Where does convenience end and P2W begin in your mind? Isn't Pyre Knight armour set P2W too with the new lighting? It clearly illuminates your immediate surrounding that a normal armour may not. That's an advantage, right? What about skill effects that make crits or ailments more visible? P2W? You do need a graphics card capable of running DirectX 11 though, otherwise you'd our of luck. P2W?

Do you see what your way of thinking opens up in my mind? The possibilities are endless and if you're willing to break that barrier, almost everything in life is P2W.

Following that path you can define advantage as whatever you like and keep moving the goal posts so that nothing is ever P2W (much like what has been done over the last 15 pages). That is not interesting from any standpoint.

I qualify being able to sell items significantly faster as an advantage. It's an advantage in the edge case of the "pro players" competing to kill the end bosses or reach level 100 first, where every edge is really important, and it's an advantage for the average player who are just progressing through the endgame and a large portion of wealth comes from sales.

"I use tabs and I am not winning" and "I don't trade, so tabs dont help me" are not valid arguments.

Take a random rational player and clone him, then let one only use the 4 basic tabs and give the other a few premium tabs. Let both optimally play for some time. After that time who do you think would be in the best position?
The answer is obvious.

"

Xavathos wrote:

Okay, you're right. That's technically true if you're willing to seperate them both, look at the statement only and not the definition context you posted below both, which I was addressing in the first place. By Dominus, I'm not going to argue this one with you though, we could still be here by Christmas 2029.

It's true in context too. You rolled 1 on the logic check,it's ok. Dont dig the hole deeper.