please end mystery boxes (loot boxes, glorified gambling)

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Littledragon01 wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Gambling is the only place I draw the line. It has no place in entertainment. POE is entertainment, all items should be in their own catagory on the store instead of locked behind RNG. The moment money is brought in you are actively exploiting a loophole in some of the people. In my mind preventing people from being exploited in any form is better than letting it continue.

My attitude starts and stops with Entertainment. Gambling should be present in entertainment weither that is cosmetic or pay to win.

I should probably proofread.

Either way, gambling shouldn't be in entertainment full stop.

lol!

In what other situation would gambling be a thing ?
Gambling IS a form of entertainement.
PoE's core concept is that it's all random, which means that when you are playing PoE, you are gambling in almost everything you are doing.

Either way, gambling shouldn't be in entertainment full stop.[/quote]
lol!

In what other situation would gambling be a thing ?
Gambling IS a form of entertainement.
PoE's core concept is that it's all random, which means that when you are playing PoE, you are gambling in almost everything you are doing.[/quote]

Monitising the gambling aspect is what I'm against, not the inclusion of free random elements. Besides there are ways around the in game RNG with crafting and such. Loot Boxes other no such way out.

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Loot Boxes other no such way out.

You mean .... apart from the fact that all the content of the loot boxes get available at full price couple of weeks after the boxes are being put in the store ?


Anyway, you do not like it, which does not mean that it shoudln't be a thing.
This still stands :

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xstorma wrote:

So what about the vast majority who use them responsibly? You take away their freedom of choice because of a small minority of week minded individuals?

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UlfgardLeo wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

a. You are referring to specific laws in different jurisdictions. Some places may require this information, some may not. Some jurisdictions require set probabilities, but this varies, and if you set your machines to the max required (for instance 2% payout) you are within the law.

b. this is not required on slot machines, which is a close gambling representation to loot boxes. slot machines tell you what combinations pay what amount, not the probability of the combinations.

c. whether or not probabilities are published varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. They are not required on Indian reservations, which is federal. (I can only speak for US)

I have not referred to laws once. I just said: "if you don't do this, you are shady". And it is.

This has been resolved though, as someone noted that all this information is provided by GGG.

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Either way, gambling shouldn't be in entertainment full stop.

Monitising the gambling aspect is what I'm against, not the inclusion of free random elements. Besides there are ways around the in game RNG with crafting and such. Loot Boxes other no such way out.

So this is not a moral issue to you but a financial one? So in your world, it is ok to exploit phycological gambling triggers, as long as there are no financial consequences? I am just trying to get a sense of the core reason you think loot boxes are so damaging and wrong.

There is one word I haven't seen (although I may have missed it) That I think would change the whole dynamic of this discussion. Since I sincerely enjoy these discussions, I am going to wait until it surfaces, if it ever does.

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Xtorma wrote:

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

I am pretty sure they would not be able to sell alcohol under the same conditions. Is your freedum threatened?


What it really comes down to is do the benefit outweigh the downsides? You can't evaluate that if you are dishonest and say that it only hurts a few weak minded idiots.

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Sickness wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

I am pretty sure they would not be able to sell alcohol under the same conditions. Is your freedum threatened?


What it really comes down to is do the benefit outweigh the downsides? You can't evaluate that if you are dishonest and say that it only hurts a few weak minded idiots.

My thoughts exactly. How does this loot boxes legality infringe on Freedoms?

I am generally pro free markets, but there is something predatory about all 'random content' purchases, regardless of value and whether or not they are pay-to-win.

I went down the mystery box rabbit hole once and spent far more than I was comfortable with (started off by a 'free' sample to get me hooked).

I avoid them now as I realise the temptation, so I don't need them to be removed, but they clearly occupy a morally grey area.

there is room in the world for the morally grey, otherwise it would be impossible to see where the lines of morality exist.

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Sickness wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

I am pretty sure they would not be able to sell alcohol under the same conditions. Is your freedum threatened?

What it really comes down to is do the benefit outweigh the downsides? You can't evaluate that if you are dishonest and say that it only hurts a few weak minded idiots.

Not the alcohol that is the issue to me, its the freedom to choose. Same as the boxes, the alcohol is just an example of a product that causes harm to a minority of the community, but still is legal. There are tons of examples of this.

I am all for people who don't like loot boxes to say so. As long as that is all you get to do then great. I still get to toss a few bucks into the slot machine whenever I feel like it, and you are more than welcome not to. No I am not being dishonest. Liberty is the ideology I base my morality on.

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Xtorma wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

I am pretty sure they would not be able to sell alcohol under the same conditions. Is your freedum threatened?

What it really comes down to is do the benefit outweigh the downsides? You can't evaluate that if you are dishonest and say that it only hurts a few weak minded idiots.

Not the alcohol that is the issue to me, its the freedom to choose. Same as the boxes, the alcohol is just an example of a product that causes harm to a minority of the community, but still is legal. There are tons of examples of this.

I am all for people who don't like loot boxes to say so. As long as that is all you get to do then great. I still get to toss a few bucks into the slot machine whenever I feel like it, and you are more than welcome not to. No I am not being dishonest. Liberty is the ideology I base my morality on.

Actually Alcohol is far worse than lootboxes, because it has a not insignificant chance to actually hurt others. There are honestly much worse than lootboxes that you are allowed to sell like Alcohol or Weapons. And at least you cannot kill someone with a lootbox, so they are not the worst.

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There is one word I haven't seen (although I may have missed it) That I think would change the whole dynamic of this discussion. Since I sincerely enjoy these discussions, I am going to wait until it surfaces, if it ever does.

Its Hitler right? It has to be Hitler, a mostly pointless discussion about something mostly pointless isn't actually real unless someone mentions nazis.



And honestly I don't think PoE is the place were you should fight gambling addictions. I'm also not sure what the effect would be. Would those people stop gambling if they cannot get lootboxes? Or would they do something that is actually more damaging (like real gambling, which is allowed in most western countries in some form).

Lootboxes here are propably economicly sound and done in a very fair way. They even give you all the information about them. They neither have items with a very low chance nor any exclusives.