please end mystery boxes (loot boxes, glorified gambling)

"

Xavathos wrote:

Could you clarify that?

Easy. This is a two-part argument

Part 1:
Loot-boxes stabilize the high-price policy of MTX that GGG employs. We could see that several times in the first few pages, Loot-boxes are seen as a way to gamble for a jackpot - obtaining high priced armor, skill-effect or what-not for much less than the original price. "Can't afford it? try loot-boxes instead".

Part 2:
Loot-boxes as implemented by GGG are unregulated gambling. Unlike proper, non-shady gambling, it misses two/three key-aspects:
a) Return-ratio (how many points worth in items do I get out on average compared to the points I spend on a dice-roll)
b) Probability of a jackpot (i.e. how likely it is to obtain the most expensive items), or even the probability of getting more out than the points you spend.
c) Publicly available probabilities. We don't even know whether the distribution is uniform or not. This is unlike many lotteries were you can calculate in advance the probability of winning in any category.


So if you decide to gamble, you might lose on a pretty bad deal compared to buying what you actually want. If you decide not to gamble, you lose, because it is hard to generate enough pressure to change the pricing policy. And of course, as a society we all lose on gambling addicts.



@Xtorma I see, you are new to the internet.

"

UlfgardLeo wrote:

"

Xavathos wrote:

Could you clarify that?

Easy. This is a two-part argument

Part 1:
Loot-boxes stabilize the high-price policy of MTX that GGG employs. We could see that several times in the first few pages, Loot-boxes are seen as a way to gamble for a jackpot - obtaining high priced armor, skill-effect or what-not for much less than the original price. "Can't afford it? try loot-boxes instead".

Part 2:
Loot-boxes as implemented by GGG are unregulated gambling. Unlike proper, non-shady gambling, it misses two/three key-aspects:
a) Return-ratio (how many points worth in items do I get out on average compared to the points I spend on a dice-roll)
b) Probability of a jackpot (i.e. how likely it is to obtain the most expensive items), or even the probability of getting more out than the points you spend.
c) Publicly available probabilities. We don't even know whether the distribution is uniform or not. This is unlike many lotteries were you can calculate in advance the probability of winning in any category.


So if you decide to gamble, you might lose on a pretty bad deal compared to buying what you actually want. If you decide not to gamble, you lose, because it is hard to generate enough pressure to change the pricing policy. And of course, as a society we all lose on gambling addicts.



@Xtorma I see, you are new to the internet.

Hmm... you make a very good point on the first part. Sounds very reasonable to me that this is the reason behind the loot boxes existing. Makes perfect sense, you have 40 dollar armour sets or 3 dollar boxes that might contain parts of it.

Your points on part 2 though, a, b and c are all stated very clearly on the news page each time a new mystery box comes out. The probability for each item clearly stated, their value in the store later, takes simple high school math from there to figure out your odds for obtaining certain items.

Have you not seen this information? They've done this for the last... 4 or 5 boxes now, if memory serves.

"

UlfgardLeo wrote:

"

Xavathos wrote:

Could you clarify that?

Easy. This is a two-part argument

Part 1:
Loot-boxes stabilize the high-price policy of MTX that GGG employs. We could see that several times in the first few pages, Loot-boxes are seen as a way to gamble for a jackpot - obtaining high priced armor, skill-effect or what-not for much less than the original price. "Can't afford it? try loot-boxes instead".

Part 2:
Loot-boxes as implemented by GGG are unregulated gambling. Unlike proper, non-shady gambling, it misses two/three key-aspects:
a) Return-ratio (how many points worth in items do I get out on average compared to the points I spend on a dice-roll)
b) Probability of a jackpot (i.e. how likely it is to obtain the most expensive items), or even the probability of getting more out than the points you spend.
c) Publicly available probabilities. We don't even know whether the distribution is uniform or not. This is unlike many lotteries were you can calculate in advance the probability of winning in any category.


So if you decide to gamble, you might lose on a pretty bad deal compared to buying what you actually want. If you decide not to gamble, you lose, because it is hard to generate enough pressure to change the pricing policy. And of course, as a society we all lose on gambling addicts.



@Xtorma I see, you are new to the internet.

Part 1. So what is the win/lose condition here? is it according to your opinion or mine? To me , the right to chose where and when I spend the money I earn is a win for me. I don't like gambling, I think you are dumb to gamble, but if that's what you want to do with the money you earn, then I am all for you having that liberty.
You want to drink alcohol,(arguably the most destructive substance ever known to man) go ahead, its your body, and your money.
You want to empty your bank account in the rmt store, and miss your rent? you are dumb, but free to make that choice.

Part 2. The loot boxes are self regulated, and not illegal.

a. You are referring to specific laws in different jurisdictions. Some places may require this information, some may not. Some jurisdictions require set probabilities, but this varies, and if you set your machines to the max required (for instance 2% payout) you are within the law.

b. this is not required on slot machines, which is a close gambling representation to loot boxes. slot machines tell you what combinations pay what amount, not the probability of the combinations.

c. whether or not probabilities are published varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. They are not required on Indian reservations, which is federal. (I can only speak for US)

So if you decide to gamble, You are exercising your liberty. you might lose on a pretty bad deal compared to buying what you actually want, but if you choose to do that with your hard earned money, then it's your right. If you decide not to gamble, you lose, because it is hard to generate enough pressure to change the pricing policy. I am not an economist, so I really don't have an argument for this other than to say that supply for rmt is unlimited, so the best way I would think to lower prices would be not to buy rmt. And of course, as a society we all lose on gambling addicts, and alcoholics, and shopaholics, gaming addicts, and every other type of addict.

There is always a cost to liberty, as there is no such thing as a utopian society. I think prohibition taught us that giving up our liberty for the good of society, does not always end up being the best thing.

Alcohol consumption rose to record levels during alcohol prohibition.
National alcohol prohibition began in 1920. Apparent alcohol use fell from 1914 to 1922. It rose thereafter. By 1925, arrests for public drunkenness and similar alcohol-related offenses were already above the pre-prohibition records. Consumption by women and children increased dramatically. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer

Forgive my internet ignorance.

To answer your original question, just open the poe store and go see if loot boxes are still being sold. If they are then the anti's lost.

I would prefer Loot boxes, cosmetic or not, should be illegal. They take advantage of psychology and certain personalities in order to get people to buy them. Sets attached to these boxes are one such downside.

"Is Just Cosmetic"
"You don't have to buy them"

Pff. Those arguments only work when your not exploiting people and feeding their gambling tendencies. Gambling on a race is illegal in some scenarios. Why not loot boxes. GGG doesn't normally take a "fuck you we will have your money" but with loot boxes it certainly feels that way.

"

Littledragon01 wrote:

I would prefer Loot boxes, cosmetic or not, should be illegal. They take advantage of psychology and certain personalities in order to get people to buy them. Sets attached to these boxes are one such downside.

"Is Just Cosmetic"
"You don't have to buy them"

Pff. Those arguments only work when your not exploiting people and feeding their gambling tendencies. Gambling on a race is illegal in some scenarios. Why not loot boxes. GGG doesn't normally take a "fuck you we will have your money" but with loot boxes it certainly feels that way.

So what about the vast majority who use them responsibly? You take away their freedom of choice because of a small minority of week minded individuals?

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

Littledragon01 wrote:

I would prefer Loot boxes, cosmetic or not, should be illegal. They take advantage of psychology and certain personalities in order to get people to buy them. Sets attached to these boxes are one such downside.

"Is Just Cosmetic"
"You don't have to buy them"

Pff. Those arguments only work when your not exploiting people and feeding their gambling tendencies. Gambling on a race is illegal in some scenarios. Why not loot boxes. GGG doesn't normally take a "fuck you we will have your money" but with loot boxes it certainly feels that way.

So what about the vast majority who use them responsibly? You take away their freedom of choice because of a small minority of week minded individuals?

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

^

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

Littledragon01 wrote:

I would prefer Loot boxes, cosmetic or not, should be illegal. They take advantage of psychology and certain personalities in order to get people to buy them. Sets attached to these boxes are one such downside.

"Is Just Cosmetic"
"You don't have to buy them"

Pff. Those arguments only work when your not exploiting people and feeding their gambling tendencies. Gambling on a race is illegal in some scenarios. Why not loot boxes. GGG doesn't normally take a "fuck you we will have your money" but with loot boxes it certainly feels that way.

So what about the vast majority who use them responsibly? You take away their freedom of choice because of a small minority of week minded individuals?

What about alcohol?. shopping in the rmt store? Where does your self righteous "good for society" mindset end? How much freedom do I have to lose in order to pacify your burning need to do the right thing for my own good?

^

Gambling is the only place I draw the line. It has no place in entertainment. POE is entertainment, all items should be in their own catagory on the store instead of locked behind RNG. The moment money is brought in you are actively exploiting a loophole in some of the people. In my mind preventing people from being exploited in any form is better than letting it continue.

My attitude starts and stops with Entertainment. Gambling shouldn't be present in entertainment weither that is cosmetic or pay to win.

"

Littledragon01 wrote:

Gambling is the only place I draw the line. It has no place in entertainment. POE is entertainment, all items should be in their own catagory on the store instead of locked behind RNG. The moment money is brought in you are actively exploiting a loophole in some of the people. In my mind preventing people from being exploited in any form is better than letting it continue.

My attitude starts and stops with Entertainment. Gambling should be present in entertainment weither that is cosmetic or pay to win.

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

Littledragon01 wrote:

Gambling is the only place I draw the line. It has no place in entertainment. POE is entertainment, all items should be in their own catagory on the store instead of locked behind RNG. The moment money is brought in you are actively exploiting a loophole in some of the people. In my mind preventing people from being exploited in any form is better than letting it continue.

My attitude starts and stops with Entertainment. Gambling should be present in entertainment weither that is cosmetic or pay to win.

I should probably proofread.

Either way, gambling shouldn't be in entertainment full stop.

"

Xtorma wrote:

a. You are referring to specific laws in different jurisdictions. Some places may require this information, some may not. Some jurisdictions require set probabilities, but this varies, and if you set your machines to the max required (for instance 2% payout) you are within the law.

b. this is not required on slot machines, which is a close gambling representation to loot boxes. slot machines tell you what combinations pay what amount, not the probability of the combinations.

c. whether or not probabilities are published varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. They are not required on Indian reservations, which is federal. (I can only speak for US)

I have not referred to laws once. I just said: "if you don't do this, you are shady". And it is.