farming sulphate is aids

More than 30 t16 maps to feel 5000 sulfite bar is over the top. Way over the top. Do you realise that some of us play game solo? And without abusing sulfite sharing?

Gating is fine, and defenetely should be there, but as thing stay now its too damn punishing and sulfite gains too static, they should be affected by map mods/mine upgrades or both.

"

grepman wrote:

they have to give an incentive nowadays. and theyre scared to make it another lab, in which they pretty much had to add idiot-proof shrines and rewards just to get people to run it

its a hell to balance.

I dont agree. I dont think its hell, its got a lot more to it than lab, its got way more variety, challenge and purpose, I dont think its the same thing, I dont think its a hell to balance.

Heres how you do it. How accessible does this have to be to function as an alternate endgame activity that people can major in and are able to take part in enough to challenge their build and find their depth limit? So you set the accessibility to suit those criteria.

Now you ask, given how accessible its ended up, what is an acceptable amount of item and xp reward for this to offer. done. it is that simple, its not hell, they just have to actually try.



People were asking for an infinite dungeon because they wanted to spend 100s, maybe 1000s of hours in it. People were asking for an alternative to maps because they wanted to spend a lot of time playing something other than maps. People wanted challenging content because they wanted to challenge their builds, they wanted scaling so that it got harder and harder to find their limits. People wanted competition with difficulty, a ladder, like the grift system.


No one was saying hey give us 20 boxes of currency endlessly so we can get mega rich. No one was asking for that, they didnt HAVE to add that, that wasnt anything to do with what people wanted, they CHOSE to add that by themselves and then said hey, we cant let this content be any of these things you were asking for because we added something NONE OF YOU were asking for to it.




In diablo are grifts super rewarding compared to normal rifts? No. I can get more uniques per hour grinding normal t13 rifts + I also get deaths breaths etc that I dont get in grifts.

Grifts take way longer, at super high levels they are bloody hard and the rewards do not make it optimal content. Yet people still play it, a lot of people, because its hard, because its challenging and hence fun, its meaningful, it has a ladder. It keeps people there playing for a lot longer than the care for item upgrades or paragon levels keeps them.



This...

"

again, because people will just do whats more efficient

is not true, this is a mistake, a misunderstanding. People will not just do whats more efficient, SOME people will, actually MOST people will not. Most people will do what is fun.

I want challenge, I want exploration, I want fixed content that is not maps, that doesnt not come with all the things I hate about maps. Theres a lot of things I want, and most efficient xp or loot per hour is nowhere on my list.

"

finally, gating artificially keeps people who play 24/7 interested in content.

to a certain extent. But its wrong to think thats a universal thing that just keeps scaling, more gating = more interest. Theres a chance Ive played more hours of this game than anyone else in this thread, might not be true, but theres actually a possibility thats a true statement, thats how much of this game ive played.

If this content stays as gated as it is Ill just leave the game and stop playing. What really keeps people playing 24/7 interested is that they are having fun, if you take an hours fun and hide it behind 4 hours of no fun, that doesnt just make sure you keep the person for fun x5, what could well happen is they just quit playing because its not fun.

They need to have confidence in their content to be fun, to keep people playing because its fun. If theyre thinking we cant let players play our content because they will get bored super quick, then make better content and let them play it. Stop fucking around gating people because you are too scared that your content is shit, just make content, listen to the content people say they want and add it. Get it right, stop hiding behind gating in fear that your game is actually a piece of shit you have to con people into sticking around for like a carrot on a stick.

"

nandchan wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

again, because people will just do whats more efficient, if you make delving strictly less efficient, then people wont do it when its not new. if you make it more efficient and remove gating, no one will play maps. the only way it works if neither have gating or both have it. you cant XOR it. and 'challenge reasons' isnt really good enough for the game nowadays.

By this logic nobody would do greater rifts in Diablo III; which is demonstrably false.

exactly.


this mindset that people only play to get xp and loot as quick as possible, and that the content in the game is so shit that if we just let people play it they will get bored in a week and quit... this needs to go. GGG need to wake the fuck up and realise that their whole mindset on their game is fucked, its not actually in line with reality.


What are they scared of? Players getting bored and qutting the game in a few weeks? Thats already happening, that has been happening for years, not because there isnt enough gated content, as I said before...


breach domains

atziri

uber atziri

shaper

elder

uber elder

council

abyssal depths

uber lab


...theres a ton of gated content, and they keep adding it, and its not helping keep players playing because its not content they can access and spend 100s of hours playing. Players are not going to sit around and play 100s of hours of boring fucking maps because you tell them theres once in a blue moon gated content they can sometimes access.

They need actual content to play for 100s of hours, somethign fun, that is what keeps them. Took hvr 4 months to hit lvl100 and ggg called him a cheat. Now he hit it in what? 2 days? 3 days this league? So many items drop now days that people are better geared in 5 days of ssf play in 2018 than they were after 5 months of softcore trade play in open beta.

What is the player retenion like? Its dogshit, its gone to fuck. People dont need more xp per hour, more loot per hour, thats killing the game, stop giving out so many rewards all the time. The rewards arnt helping, theyre hurting the game, rewards dont keep people, gating doesnt keep people, having a fun game people can actually PLAY is what keeps people playing.


Take away the gross reward spam, add content that people can spend 100s of hours playing. Done. Thats how you fix this game. Its not hard, its not rocket science, its not a hard thing to implement, theyre just not even trying, theyre intentionally doing the wrong thing.

"

nandchan wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

again, because people will just do whats more efficient, if you make delving strictly less efficient, then people wont do it when its not new. if you make it more efficient and remove gating, no one will play maps. the only way it works if neither have gating or both have it. you cant XOR it. and 'challenge reasons' isnt really good enough for the game nowadays.

By this logic nobody would do greater rifts in Diablo III; which is demonstrably false.

D3 is a whole another game than PoE, and people who spend a lot of time on both cant keep up interest in d3 for like more than a week- at least thats the general sentiment I got.

D3 didnt have many gating things in the first place, maybe asides from uber keys to ubers. and that was ages ago.

in poe, maps were and ARE gated. GGG have to completely differentiate rewards in each to get people to run both, but if people are trading, they will just focus on most efficient one and then buy the rewards from the other form of endgame. people who dont like lab buy lab enchants, dont they ?

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

I dont agree. I dont think its hell, its got a lot more to it than lab, its got way more variety, challenge and purpose, I dont think its the same thing, I dont think its a hell to balance.

variety ? same mobs all the time and the rng edges/patterns of layouts are already showing. lab has better layout generation and the only variety in delves comes from mob affixes.

and yes, its hard to balance the game to cater to both streamers (whom players watch) who play 24/7, those who play 'competitively' and those who play for sheer challenge, and so on. it's hard in an age where each 'edge' is instantly posted on internet

"

Heres how you do it. How accessible does this have to be to function as an alternate endgame activity that people can major in and are able to take part in enough to challenge their build and find their depth limit? So you set the accessibility to suit those criteria.

bunch of water and no substance, sorry. you dont actually say 'how'

"

Now you ask, given how accessible its ended up, what is an acceptable amount of item and xp reward for this to offer. done. it is that simple, its not hell, they just have to actually try.

wat

"

People were asking for an infinite dungeon because they wanted to spend 100s, maybe 1000s of hours in it. People were asking for an alternative to maps because they wanted to spend a lot of time playing something other than maps. People wanted challenging content because they wanted to challenge their builds, they wanted scaling so that it got harder and harder to find their limits. People wanted competition with difficulty, a ladder, like the grift system.

thats fine. so as alternative, my suggestion was let sulphite spawn in delves, but randomly and in such quantities that you need to grind current tiers before you can access next tier. this way, you preserve grind gating and never have to exit delves. does that work for you ?

"

In diablo are grifts super rewarding compared to normal rifts? No. I can get more uniques per hour grinding normal t13 rifts + I also get deaths breaths etc that I dont get in grifts.

I bought diablo 3 and I dont think I can access grift, soooo...I wouldnt know. I know any streamer who can compare longevity of games playing 24/7, poe stretches further. artificially- yes, any arpg does tho.

"

is not true, this is a mistake, a misunderstanding. People will not just do whats more efficient, SOME people will, actually MOST people will not. Most people will do what is fun.

nah, we are in the minority here. also, they dont want to force ANY part of their significant support into one or the other category. they dont want ALL streamers to do delve because it would appear that maps shouldnt be done.

"

to a certain extent. But its wrong to think thats a universal thing that just keeps scaling, more gating = more interest. Theres a chance Ive played more hours of this game than anyone else in this thread, might not be true, but theres actually a possibility thats a true statement, thats how much of this game ive played.

the frequency with which you bring up the argument of how many more hours youve played than others on this forum, is truly staggering.

"

They need to have confidence in their content to be fun, to keep people playing because its fun. If theyre thinking we cant let players play our content because they will get bored super quick, then make better content and let them play it. Stop fucking around gating people because you are too scared that your content is shit, just make content, listen to the content people say they want and add it. Get it right, stop hiding behind gating in fear that your game is actually a piece of shit you have to con people into sticking around for like a carrot on a stick.

utopian idea in a game like PoE. bestiary was for people who 'wanted to have fun'. how did that turn out ? poe isnt a single player game.

"

grepman wrote:

again, because people will just do whats more efficient, if you make delving strictly less efficient, then people wont do it when its not new. if you make it more efficient and remove gating, no one will play maps. the only way it works if neither have gating or both have it. you cant XOR it. and 'challenge reasons' isnt really good enough for the game nowadays.

lol. This is not correct. You might argue for it being correct for streamers/racers, but that's always been true of every game. The core of doing whatever is more efficient is economics & opportunity cost, which depends on people's marginal benefit function for every single choice. Sure, if you're offerred $10 vs. $12, everyone will take the $12 and almost nobody will take the $10. The problem with that is that Delve and Maps are not 1-dimensional figures. They are radically different forms of content with radically different forms of combat, pace, rewards, graphics, challenge, progression, mechanical minigames, etc.

And that allows each mode to provide its own value to people, variable over time, with one taking precedence over the other for different people at different times. Some people will only play Maps, some people will only play Delve, most would play a mix of both, because variety provides its own value. Value for the average player is not only measured in exalts & chaos. whether or not they admit to it. The mode of action is integrally important to a player's decision to play content, because otherwise, it's not play, it's work, and work is precisely what many people try to avoid in games.

I REALLY hope GGG hasn't forgotten the intrinsic value of experiencing content vs. the extrinsic value of currency, as you seem to have.

It the content is to rewarding (which it is) then half the rewards and cap them at a certain delve level. Also why does delve need all rewards, lab enchants, shaper/elder items,essences,reliquary keys etc.
Then make it more dangerous then maps and cut ivl 83 mobs experience by a 1/3rd and remove the sulphite limit.
The price for that lvl of experience is an alc in mapping and we can run t15 maps infinitly now for 6c a pop at zana lvl 7.
Its easy to make delve not the place for high exp gains and loot drops ggg just had to make it grindy and oh wowow lootsplosion filled.

"

adghar wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

again, because people will just do whats more efficient, if you make delving strictly less efficient, then people wont do it when its not new. if you make it more efficient and remove gating, no one will play maps. the only way it works if neither have gating or both have it. you cant XOR it. and 'challenge reasons' isnt really good enough for the game nowadays.

lol. This is not correct. You might argue for it being correct for streamers/racers,

its not even true for most streamers. Most of the big hc streamers now play solo self found, how is that the most xp or wealth per hour? Its not, ssfhc is the least efficient way to play this game, it offers the least potential loot and xp of any mode, and yet the most challenge and, potentially, fun for them. Thats why they play it, challenge and fun.

What about big softcore trade streamers? Whos the biggest? Mathil? Ok so mathil races to 100 and gets the most wealth possible right? Nope. He makes quirky builds, takes them to early 90s, uses fairly journeyman gears, and his whole thing is taking these builds to shaper, uber atziri, uber elder, hes all about challenging those builds and thats what he finds fun, making builds and challenging them.

People could try and argue its correct for streamers, but they would be completely wrong.

"

grepman wrote:

"

Heres how you do it. How accessible does this have to be to function as an alternate endgame activity that people can major in and are able to take part in enough to challenge their build and find their depth limit? So you set the accessibility to suit those criteria.

bunch of water and no substance, sorry. you dont actually say 'how'

"

Now you ask, given how accessible its ended up, what is an acceptable amount of item and xp reward for this to offer. done. it is that simple, its not hell, they just have to actually try.

wat

how? by tuning the gating system to allow people to spend enough time in the delves to facilitate those criteria....?

Right now theyve done it the other way around, theyve set the rewards in order to make it super hype op content, and then balanced the accessibility around how much they have to gate those rewards.

It should be obvious, if it isnt obvious to you then move along.

"

grepman wrote:

"

In diablo are grifts super rewarding compared to normal rifts? No. I can get more uniques per hour grinding normal t13 rifts + I also get deaths breaths etc that I dont get in grifts.

I bought diablo 3 and I dont think I can access grift, soooo...I wouldnt know. I know any streamer who can compare longevity of games playing 24/7, poe stretches further. artificially- yes, any arpg does tho.

then take it from people who do know this subject that it proves your previous point incorrect.

"

grepman wrote:

"

They need to have confidence in their content to be fun, to keep people playing because its fun. If theyre thinking we cant let players play our content because they will get bored super quick, then make better content and let them play it. Stop fucking around gating people because you are too scared that your content is shit, just make content, listen to the content people say they want and add it. Get it right, stop hiding behind gating in fear that your game is actually a piece of shit you have to con people into sticking around for like a carrot on a stick.

utopian idea in a game like PoE. bestiary was for people who 'wanted to have fun'. how did that turn out ? poe isnt a single player game.

non one asked for bestiary. Many people have been asking for alternative endgame to maps, like endless dungeons. Theres absolutely no meaning or point in what youve just said here. One piece of content was shit therefor making content that is fun is an impossible thing? No, theres no logical follow through here.

That was bad content, people posted and complained that they didnt like it. People are posting and saying they love this content, but they are not allowed to access it enough. Its an entirely different situation, entirely different content, theres no comparison of this sort to be made.



I just dont think you get it, thats fine, but Im not gonna spend forever trying to explain things to you. I like you, I think ur a smart guy, its not meant to be an insult, but I just dont see that theres any value for either of us in it. This issue and conversation seems to be alien to how you view the game and its players, its probably just not for you. If you were the guy in charge of balancing this content and there was value in sitting here for 5 hours going through point by point then sure, Id go there.

"

Fhark wrote:

It the content is to rewarding (which it is) then half the rewards and cap them at a certain delve level. Also why does delve need all rewards, lab enchants, shaper/elder items,essences,reliquary keys etc.
Then make it more dangerous then maps and cut ivl 83 mobs experience by a 1/3rd and remove the sulphite limit.
The price for that lvl of experience is an alc in mapping and we can run t15 maps infinitly now for 6c a pop at zana lvl 7.
Its easy to make delve not the place for high exp gains and loot drops ggg just had to make it grindy and oh wowow lootsplosion filled.

exactly. It really is this simple. Its nothing to do with the fact they cant find this balance, its that they havent tried to.

"

SweetChilli wrote:

looks like most of them died to reflect mob, but hard to say when you can't see shit like you said. You can actually die in maps even tough your one shotting most of it also, rare mix of s**t luck in a game with weird balance.

Also, most people will have quit the league/ game before grinding enough to reach delve 1000. These guys are streamers AND being fed yellow cake.

I don't think so, monsters ( blue mobs it seems ) still survive, and they all don't just instantly die even though they likely have a ridiculously high dps.
The mobs do seem tanky there, there has to be something.

"

Oblitus wrote:

Decide already, can you see anything or not.

Nice jumping in a completely different topic taking things out of context.

"

grepman wrote:

pretty sure he can't see shit in 6 player party play...but CAN see what hes talking about, when he's soloing.

I thought that was pretty clear from both posts and context in which they were made

Thank you

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

done. and yes it IS that easy, they just didnt even try. Im just watching baelcast right now, theyre talking about 1k dpth delves giving 20 currency boxes etc... seriously? What are they doing? they have just totally fucked this whole thing up, its not difficult to do it right, they just didnt even try, they didnt even set out with the understanding of what doing it right was.

I remember 9 boxes at depth ~700ish, but indeed .... that's ridiculous.

"

grepman wrote:

they have to give an incentive nowadays. and theyre scared to make it another lab, in which they pretty much had to add idiot-proof shrines and rewards just to get people to run it

Yeah, even if the lab is really rewarding ... you see what happens when you add a content with slightly different mechanisms ( part of the core game now of course ) and a different level of difficulty ? ( hopefully the lab bully brigade won't come and derail .... )
QQ QQ QQ QQ, and GGG has been doing great taking some good feedback and ignoring the rest about it.

So if GGG would lower the rewards and make Delve easier to access ... I think that it would not be warmly welcomed by the Majority I'm afraid, as much as it could be good.

Having a little bit of sulphite the access and most of the actual sulphite cost gate the reward would partly solve that problem ... but then what keeps you from delving super deep at very low cost, then using sulphite where the rewards are ridiculous ?
You would need a system a bit more complex, where you can't fully unlock the reward in the next delve unless you've unlocked that much in the previous delve ( could be justified by ... the crawler has not cleared the path enough to bring in that much power ? ), but then you'd need to re-run the same delve for that ? that would be ... confusing.

No, I think that the way to go would be lower the access cost, or increase the Sulphite gained from maps, significantly.
They could reduce rewards I guess ( but it would be a bit unfair mid-league, hopefully they won't care too much about it ).

"

adghar wrote:

lol. This is not correct. You might argue for it being correct for streamers/racers, but that's always been true of every game.

No, people definitely DO what is more efficient, or at least what they think is more efficient.
What are the most used spells in Delve ? Arc and BV, and I'm readdy to bet that Arc is being mostly used with either spell totem or traps ( mostly saboteur, and some elementalists and Hierophants ).
What was it in Incursion ? Arc traps.
Why ? because it's more fun than other skills ? No, because it's better and easier, period.
I find it a bit sad in a way ... but that's how the world works, even in the entertainment world.


Streamers on the other hand, do show much more variety build wise for example, and content wise. Because they need to provide an entertaining content.




What about adding some branches that give little rewards but cost significantly less sulphite, and make those branches not able to join the normal ones ? ( or at least, not directly, and not for free ... well making them disconnected from the rest would be much easier )