With the Lycosidae nerf GGG is really saying

lycosidae? terrible word to type out , i hear by re-dub it SPIDER-GRILL for when you just have the hunger for some jumbo bbq arachnid legs

*Sigh*

I should've known a civil discussion was too much for GD. All right...rubber gloves on.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

Is this sarcasm? why? so the accuracy on the accuracy side of the tree turns out to be better than the accuracy of the non accuracy side of the tree?

isnt that just common sense? isnt that exactly what dexterity is supposed to give people as a stat?

Why are only right-side builds allowed to hit their targets with attacks? Dexterity giving accuracy is a bonus, and means right-side builds can spend less of their resources on accuracy. Right-side builds still have access to life and damage, whilst getting innate accuracy.

Left-side builds do not have access to accuracy, outside of ungodly expensive gear or Resolute Technique. They don't have less accuracy, they have none at all. Resolute Technique should not be a mandatory requirement for left-side builds any more than Lycosidae should.

You're acting like left-side builds deal more raw damage than right-side builds. Where is this idea coming from? What deals more damage: daggers, claws and wands with 9+ base crit, 2+APS, and maybe seventy percent of the damage of a martial weapon, or martial weapons that're lucky to see six base crit, 1.5APS, and maybe get fifty or sixty raw damage tops over an equivalently-rolled dagger?

Here's a hint: the answer is daggers.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

what bandaid are you talking about? a bandaid suggests they were fixing something. there was nothing TO fix. the left side of the tree having bad accuracy is a clear intuitive trade off for having a primary stat that scales physical damage and adds life implicitly

"Bandaids" are slap patches applied to stop the bleeding. Lycosidae, in this case, was a unique that got introduced which acted as an effective fix to the problem of left-side attack builds not being able to hit a damned thing. This proved immensely popular, because it turns out that hitting things is more fun than not hitting things in a game about hitting things.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

so really what we should say is this

Crit build on the right side of the tree with minimal investments in Accuracy on gear: 95% with about 30% increased physical damage from strength and about 75 hp extra

also has shitty life nodes

vs


Crit build on the left side of the tree with minimal investments in Accuracy on gear: 82% hit chance
with about 70%+ physical damage from strength and 150 hp extra

also has excellent life nodes

Most builds I see average between 180-220% tree life no matter which side they're on, with the exception of left-side builds that specifically sacrifice damage (and take Blood Magic and its nodes) to push harder for more life. Stop acting like right-side builds are stuck at 3k while left-siders all get 10k.

To the main point here: I canguarantee you that 12% hit chance is worth a very large deal more effective DPS than 40% increased physical damage. 40% inc. phys is something you can get on one jewel. Point me at the one single jewel that gives me +12% hit chance's worth of accuracy and I'll then point you to one of the game's best new chase items.

Especially since there's plenty of left-side elemental damage builds that don't care about physical damage at all, but they still have to deal with having miserable accuracy. Now sure, right-side spellcasters also don't usually care about accuracy, but then again they simply get for free what Lycosidae allows 1H attack builds to do at the opportunity cost of taking an otherwise-lousy shield.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

all lycostae is...is power creep, pure and simple. it did not need to exist. crit builds .. on either side of the tree did not need a weapon that gives 100% accuracy for effectively free.

Why not? They already had a few of those weapons, they just didn't like them. Lycosidae is very strong, yes. That's why they're T1-ing it and making it a giant bitch to get. Chase uniques are hardly new to the game. It's unusual for a chase-y unique to be something you can equip in Act 1, but you know what? Again: why not? Lycosidae by itself does little for your DPS; it's the sort of thing that scales up as you do.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

and on the topic of minions , no those fuckers did not need it either and frankly that shield is terrible for minion build diversity

gee fellas which do i pick , a 2 hander that gives me 15% more damage because it adds minions
(or really any minion 2 hander)

or do i take the shield that gives me an 80% more multi. i mean holy shit move aside baron .. lycostae is the most powerful attack based minion item in the game by several orders of power

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING. Lycosidae being "terrible for build diversity" is not because Lycosidae is overpowered. If it was, Kongor's Undying Rage and Lioneye's Glare would both also be big chase uniques, and both of those are one-alch purchases within thirty minutes of a league starting. Lycosidae being as prolific and build-defining as it is? It's an indication that there are problems in the game that could use addressing.

Minions should not need The Worst Non-Chance to Flee Support Gem in the game to avoid missing half their attacks. Left-side builds should not need to be shoehorned into being Resolute Technique or having to figure out how to get 1500+ flat accuracy on gear in order to hit stuff.

Nobody's asking for left-side builds to get all the accuracy. Right side builds are better at accuracy and significantly better at crit. That's okay. Mostly we're just saying that instead of the accuracy on the tree being 100% right side and 0% left side...could we maybe get, like...70/30?

Because Lycosidae will continue to be a very highly sought-after unique used on a huge number of builds until it stops being the blind-idiot obvious best, and very nearly only, solution to the problem of NOBODY CAN HIT STUFF OVER HERE.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

So it is a choice , easier access of hitpoints as a trade off for bad accuracy . or have great accuracy as a trade off for truly awful access to life?

I don't mind choices, but if one option is much worse it isn't really a choice anymore, the amount of people playing left side crit before Lyco should tell us how good that choice was.

See?
1. Above average life, average attack/move speed, average acc, poor crit passives, poor weapon options
2. Average life, above average attack/move speed, near perfect acc, good crit passives, good weapon options

I don't call that two choices, I call that the right way to skin a cat and a noob trap.

Lyco turned that into
1. Above average life, average attack/move speed, perfect acc, poor crit passives, poor weapon options
2. Average life, above average attack/move speed, near perfect acc, good crit passives, good weapon options

And we suddenly have two choices. I'm not saying Lycosidae was the only way to do that, they could have given us better crit options that would make high acc investment worthwhile, I'd actually prefer that. I'm fairly certain left side crit was supposed to be an option and it wasn't, too much effort for lackluster results.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

"

Shagsbeard wrote:

I've never played a character that had much trouble with accuracy. Is this really such an issue?

no it is just a case of people being spoiled.

they want their crit builds to be powerful and cheap. forgetting that the accuracy investment is kind of an intentional downside to going crit that is supposed to exist.


people complain about the clear speed meta and builds doing too much damage .. but frankly that is because of things like lycostae

these short-cut mechanics that honestly dont have nearly enough downsides to justify what they provide.

vaal pact was another such mechanic.

but its too be expected for people to suffer withdraw

fully agreed here

as usual with poe nowadays, people see any mechanics that requires investment a requirement to be circumvented easily

so instead of trying to solve the problem, people try to find an easy way to deal with the concept of solving this problem and if its not possible they wont attempt to solve the problem altogether (ie, play some other build)

accuracy is viewed as some pesky inconvenience that must be circumveneted as easily possible, and so is seemingly any other mechanic that doesnt deal with some sort of clear speed (move speed, coverage and damage)

there are so many tools to solve the whole 'accuracy on the left side of the tree' conundrum.

and a clear side effect that lycosidae isnt just used by left side of the tree. for any attack build that isnt bow/2H (obviously) and doesnt specialize in dots or use RT/EO, lycosidae is the BiS shield. a crit frostblades raider is better off with lycosidae compared to any rare you can think in the offhand.

because accuracy rolls twice for a crit, no amount of accuracy on the right side(chance to hit is capped) can realistically compete with Lycosidae, unless you go and stack accuracy to the top and build a build around it.

and when you have monsters who are evasive, enfeeble curse in maps (ofc less meaningful today because you can just flask around it), blind etc its no contest...


and oh it has life on it, very high block, has low level requirement, and adds a bunch of cold to counterattacks which btw work on the of spite glove enchantment so if youre crit build you will be doing a ton of chill and will probably freeze some mobs when you get hit

all good things on top of already super powerful cant miss mechanic

"

grepman wrote:

accuracy is viewed as some pesky inconvenience that must be circumveneted as easily possible, and so is seemingly any other mechanic that doesnt deal with some sort of clear speed (move speed, coverage and damage)

People do that with every mechanic GGG tries to add in order to make the game seem deeper or more complicated. It's not not really not doing that.

Optimization is really simply finding the most overpowered and ruthlessly efficient way to mitigate incoming damage(VP) and dealing with poor affix distribution (lycosaid).


Look at how awful the current implementation of bleed/corrupting blood is. Literally no one actually tries to 'play' against the mechanic by stacking pantheons and DOT resistance, instead, GGG just forced a player tax in the form of perma spamming a flask or being forced to wear a lab only boot. How about make corrupting blood act like the current implementation of volatile core where balls of ball follow players but dissipate in time?

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

lycosidae? terrible word to type out , i hear by re-dub it SPIDER-GRILL for when you just have the hunger for some jumbo bbq arachnid legs

its the lucozade shield for me.



I think its a crap shield, its got terrible stats and you go from not giving a shit about reflect because you just evade it all to obliterating yourself and hence needing vaal pact... and then they removed reflect...

yeah, the shield needed dealt with given the new changes, good that its now super rare. However rare they made it, they should have made it 4x more rare, and they should have followed suit by making rats nest, starkonjas, bringer, devotos, lioneyes remorse, binos, anguish, qotf, lightning coil, belly, carcass, all the amazing endgame uniques t1 rarity imo.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

I think its a crap shield, its got terrible stats

wat

31% block and 60 life for perfect roll is terrible stats ? its super high block for shield AND it has life on it

obviously without global cant miss its garbo, but shield would still be used if it had block in the 20s and no life on it. cold damage to counterattacks is nice flavor so thats that

"

Nephalim wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

accuracy is viewed as some pesky inconvenience that must be circumveneted as easily possible, and so is seemingly any other mechanic that doesnt deal with some sort of clear speed (move speed, coverage and damage)

People do that with every mechanic GGG tries to add in order to make the game seem deeper or more complicated. It's not not really not doing that.

by definition, the more mandatory mechanics to playing around you add, the more complex the game becomes. doesnt matter if theyre routines or not, if you have 300 routines to keep track of, the game, BY DEFINITION, is more complex. especially if these routines dont have an easy way out.

conversely, the less mechanics in the game there are to keep track of, the less problems to solve, the less complex it becomes. you remove all unique mechanics and routines from poe it becomes a matter of 'stack 7k life, cap resists, 6l skill with more multipliers and the rest damage nodes close to your life nodes,press one button, kill monsters'. fin.

you remove the routine of capping resists and now it becomes even easier to optimize. its a routine yet it adds a lot of variety in your way to achieve this routine cap.

the goal of complex games is to make an unbounded knapsack problem. that can have varied and multiple solutions, such as all solutions are not obvious, but some solutions can be reached.

the issue here is a lot of playerbase of PoE nowadays for some reason don't want a complex game and want as simple as possible. they are ok with people making choices (ie, showing solution) for them so they can just not problem solve but just press button with as few problem solving as possible.

for me, a solution that is obvious and simple and powerful is awful game design, yet for these people its the opposite.

"

Literally no one actually tries to 'play' against the mechanic by stacking pantheons and DOT resistance,

its because a staunching flask exists. remove staunching flask from the game. now we actually have some interesting choices, dont we ?

"

grepman wrote:

its because a staunching flask exists. remove staunching flask from the game. now we actually have some interesting choices, dont we ?

What you'd get is a max exodus bigger than CoC because literally no one but the top 5 racers would ever breach level 94. Now, if GGG removed staunching flasks AND drastically reduced the power of bleed AND reworked bleed to be a ball that follows you around and can be manually dodged AND added better DOT resistance to the tree then suddenly it becomes a meaningful mechanic instead of player tax it is now.

No one likes bleed, no one cares about it, everyone just straps on a shoe or spams their utility flasks every 6 seconds to make the mechanic not exist. They really could just replace it with a global modifier that says "players have one less flask suffix" and nothing would change.

Give it the volatile blood and reflect treatment.