With the Lycosidae nerf GGG is really saying

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

so in that sense again what is the issue with the crit balance? there is crit on the left side of the tree , just like there is elemental damage in the dex heavy side of the tree. but they both have limitations. neither are as versatile as the options afforded to them else where.

Thought that was clear enough by now, the issue is too much buck for the bang, I'm not saying it shouldn't be more expensive and weaker than the right side but too much is too much. Lyco was too much and I don't like the Jugger bonus either, too concentrated, but there should be some middle road to cut the cost or increase the reward, dunno, a keystone to transfer str bonus to crit multi at some ratio or something.

Ye, I don't really mind most of the nerfs, since I can build around them with good and expensive gear.

I have also noticed that GGG is just terrorising the new/newer players.
Defences, damage. It's all becoming weaker and weaker, requiring more money to scale up high enough to be effective and fun.

Instant leech alone will cost you at least a mirror, suddenly I can't afford it. (Im missing like 30ex)
If it keeps going like this it's going to get near impossible to actually get into the game.

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BigFatCaeZZar wrote:

Ye, I don't really mind most of the nerfs, since I can build around them with good and expensive gear.

I have also noticed that GGG is just terrorising the new/newer players.
Defences, damage. It's all becoming weaker and weaker, requiring more money to scale up high enough to be effective and fun.

Instant leech alone will cost you at least a mirror, suddenly I can't afford it. (Im missing like 30ex)
If it keeps going like this it's going to get near impossible to actually get into the game.

wot? alot of people can pretty much steamroll the game with SSF gear. there have to be a learning curve, and not everyone just stomp the game. Dont want a game like d3.
And no, the addition of shaper/elder item is a HUGE power creep. Those items are insane, and I am pretty sure someone will make a build that can 1shot each bosses in the game with those. I already have found out some way to do insane stuff with the elder/shaper items, and can tell you it have become easier to play this game. Not harder.

and the Nerf to lyco is justified. Think it in a different way, if the shield gave you 20k acc instead of the mod, people will say it is OPOP because they are looking at the number, but that shield is more insane than any acc you could give it. It also gives about 60life and 30+ block, that is insane in 1 single item.

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bunnyoncrack wrote:

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BigFatCaeZZar wrote:

Ye, I don't really mind most of the nerfs, since I can build around them with good and expensive gear.

I have also noticed that GGG is just terrorising the new/newer players.
Defences, damage. It's all becoming weaker and weaker, requiring more money to scale up high enough to be effective and fun.

Instant leech alone will cost you at least a mirror, suddenly I can't afford it. (Im missing like 30ex)
If it keeps going like this it's going to get near impossible to actually get into the game.

wot? alot of people can pretty much steamroll the game with SSF gear. there have to be a learning curve, and not everyone just stomp the game. Dont want a game like d3.
And no, the addition of shaper/elder item is a HUGE power creep. Those items are insane, and I am pretty sure someone will make a build that can 1shot each bosses in the game with those. I already have found out some way to do insane stuff with the elder/shaper items, and can tell you it have become easier to play this game. Not harder.

and the Nerf to lyco is justified. Think it in a different way, if the shield gave you 20k acc instead of the mod, people will say it is OPOP because they are looking at the number, but that shield is more insane than any acc you could give it. It also gives about 60life and 30+ block, that is insane in 1 single item.

You're rather adding to what I said.
We got a new kind of OP items, yes, how much will the good ones cost? 40ex? A 100? A mirror?
Instant leech used to be free, and now?

Im saying that these changes make it difficult for new players to fully join the endgame.

its a swim against the tide tho right? Essentially the games history is that its become easier and easier and easier to make a faceroll build and find faceroll items. New players have a breeze of a time now compared to the past.

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BigFatCaeZZar wrote:

Instant leech used to be free, and now?

If you care about balance in standard than you're operating in a different universe from GGG.

Instant leech isn't "1 mirror" now, at least not in any meta that GGG gives a shit about. It's "impossible". You "cannot" run instant leech in abyss league. There's no price tag associated. It's just disallowed.

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codetaku wrote:

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BigFatCaeZZar wrote:

Instant leech used to be free, and now?

If you care about balance in standard than you're operating in a different universe from GGG.

Instant leech isn't "1 mirror" now, at least not in any meta that GGG gives a shit about. It's "impossible". You "cannot" run instant leech in abyss league. There's no price tag associated. It's just disallowed.

Im talking standard, I don't care for temp. leagues.
If you're excluding legacy items, there's no solid way of running instant leech, true.

Still, even acuity or vinktar doesn't replace the old VP, not as stable or OP.
There's bloodseeker, it remains un-nerfed. Probably 'cuz it's shit.

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raics wrote:

Thought that was clear enough by now

not to all parties in the thread i think. its better to beat horse corpse into a pile of goo on this just to be sure.

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the issue is too much buck for the bang

indeed, but i feel we (not just you and me but the other people in the thread) kinda of took it a little past just about spider grill and into the whole right vs left tree debate.

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but there should be some middle road to cut the cost or increase the reward, dunno, a keystone to transfer str bonus to crit multi at some ratio or something.

but then why would you bother with resolute technique?

If ggg wanted accuracy to come easy or at-least less painful to the left side of the tree. they would change resolute technique to be less painful.

this node's very existence coupled with this recent nerf to lycosidae drop rates kind of suggests that they really really dont want to narrow the gap between the dex crit and the str crit.

And yeah i can i see how that can suck because it does mean more than a few builds are significantly less approachable i still believe that it is fine since it shows perfectly what value dex has. it shows that it matters.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

but then why would you bother with resolute technique?

Because crit still doesn't come easy, there's value in solving all your offensive problems with one passive, that frees up a jackload of points you can put into life. I don't like mandatory keystones and RT is cutting real close to mandatory for left side, and I don't think giving everything that can't use RT 'cannot miss' is terribly elegant either, like Kongor.

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Saltychipmunk wrote:

but then why would you bother with resolute technique?

If ggg wanted accuracy to come easy or at-least less painful to the left side of the tree. they would change resolute technique to be less painful.

this node's very existence coupled with this recent nerf to lycosidae drop rates kind of suggests that they really really dont want to narrow the gap between the dex crit and the str crit.

And yeah i can i see how that can suck because it does mean more than a few builds are significantly less approachable i still believe that it is fine since it shows perfectly what value dex has. it shows that it matters.

First of all, Lycosidae is a shield and thus its effect is off-limits to two-handed weapons. 2H weapons (that aren't Kongor's Undying Rage or Lioneye's Glare) are still stuck with Resolute Technique.

And as Raics said, Resolute Technique is hewing very close to being a required allocation on the right side. When your choice is "Allocate Resolute Technique, sigh at all the damage you're losing from Elemental Overload or other crit triggers" or "do not allocate Resolute Technique, struggle to break 80% hit rate regardless of crit"...is that really a choice? Is it really any wonder that when Choice #3, "Equip Lycosidae, get RT for one-handed weapons except WITHOUT sacrificing EO or other cool damage boosters for your build" became available, it was jumped on?

I don't want to see a proliferation of "Hits cannot be evaded". It is an extremely powerful modifier, on this we can all agree. Did Grinding Gear expect their cheap beater Rawhide Tower unique shield with the funky graphic and the flavor of "makes counterattacks juicy" to become one of the most popular and defining items in the game? Clearly not. But maybe they should have, given how massively high Resolute Technique keeps scoring in their Most Used Keystones metrics. This, as well as Lycosidae's unexpected* meteoric rize in popularity, is something that should be interpreted as the playerbase screaming for left-side accuracy.

~80% hit rate sucks rocks. No part of it is fun. Investing in a build to overcome its weaknesses is fun, but there comes a point where too much investment for too little return swings back to unfun again. Accuracy is so scarce on the left side that I'm not sure I've seen a single left-side build (outside weird Juggernauts with the accuracy node almost nobody uses) with greater than 90% hit rate without Resolute Technique.

Nobody's asking for a dozen new HCBE uniques. That's a pissy solution and we all know it. Nobody's asking for four hundred free Dex on the right side. Nobody's saying Lycosidae shouldn't be less popular than it is. We're saying that Lycosidae will not stop being as popular as it is until the cost of not taking it stops being so painful. People can complain all they like about how accuracy should be a feature of Dex builds and right-siders, but the reality of the game is that hitting stuff is fun, not hitting stuff is not fun, and since people want to have fun they'll continue to use whatever they have to in order to hit stuff.

If you want Lycosidae to be less popular and powerful? Give us an accuracy cluster or three on the left side. Not a big one, but even little clusters are better than no clusters at all. Give players the chance to do the thing where they get to invest in standard accuracy. There should be a range of options between "Resolute Technique, 100% accuracy, 0% crit", "Lycosidae, 100% Accuracy, standard crit, 1H only", and "<80% hit rate after investment".

Trust me, plenty of folks would like to use shields other than Lycosidae on left-side 1H builds. Or go dual-wield. Or even go two-hander without being forced into Resolute Technique. But they realistically can't do that when accuracy is essentially nonexistent over there, can they?