Chris and his D3 Interview

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鬼殺し wrote:

...There are some here I'd call hateful. Snorkle isn't one, although he can be assertive and straightforward. I'd tone that down a bit were I you. Which I'm not.

Also, your rather staunch 'GGG is doing nothing' stance is...difficult to embrace. I've seen Chris murder bots in his spare time when everyone else was relaxing, playing games, hanging out. That was a while ago mind you, but I doubt his stance towards them has changed. The war is unwinnable, granted, but it must be fought. And it must be fought in ways that aren't always obvious to the players. This is a trust issue, because obfuscation is necessary. It's essentially a covert operation and must remain so.

As for price fixing, index scanning and the like, yeah, that's not going away in a hurry. Fixing was probably inevitable once people figured out how easy it is to manipulate a market where the seller has no obligation to sell at any point in the transaction process. Even a GGG-hosted version of poe.trade wouldn't fix this. A good argument for a more robust system, against which my stance has softened considerably.

This is and has been somewhat off-topic for a while though. The original post pointed out that Chris seems out of touch with his own game. I think that has been sufficiently proven, although to be fair, not many CEOs or MDs are intimately aware of their products' ins and outs. Their place in the chain is closer to 'making sure those working on the product know the product intimately'. Which is all to say, maybe the boss shouldn't be quite so glib about PoE publicly these days.

I don't believe they are doing nothing. I know they punish botters and even lock entire guilds that are thought to be doing things. But at the same time I have around when some drama hit(what I mentioned earlier) and have my reservations about things. You know, at one time I swore to never spend another dollar after that whole fiasco at Forsaken Masters and this certain scumbag getting a pass/name change/help/etc. But of course then currency tabs and all that good stuff came out and I had to have it, lol.

I mean they aren't doing much about their 3rd party trading problem. We can all state that much. How long have they supposedly been thinking of a fix now? Years? How many years does this game expect to run? I honestly figured they were getting ready for a new one once they released all 10 acts. Early on didn't they state they planned to run the game 10 acts, with 1 act released per year/2 years. I felt once they dropped them all they had other plans. Maybe they do, maybe they just thought up more acts in that time.

And I know they would have to think of ways to fix price fixing. Index/Scanning would be at least curbed to people using bots instead of anyone with google and or enough computer power to run as many pages scanning as they can.

You know thats why they are the developers and designers; the smart guys. I have confidence they could think of a way to fix it. Just like I have confidence they can find ways to fix balance issues. Hell, even your idea of transaction locking would be a fix.

Well, when he is blatantly wrong about it, its going to strike a nerve with people. He seems out of touch with the economy side of his game which has devolved into nearly the same exact thing he complained about D3.

Also, you know I'm just a random poster here. I have no power. Why people get so bent out of shape like I'm "demanding" changes. Exactly what can I do? I'm just here with a differing opinion than the next. Just because I don't agree with someone does that make me a "Kid who is bad at the game?" Should "I leave and make my own game?" Am I a "whiner" with my 500 posts in all these years cause I kept my posts to 2 topics I care about instead of spewing shit over every thread in GD? People need to take a chill pill once in a while. A forum is for debate and discussion. You should welcome someone with opposite viewpoints. Honestly I like this topic so I talk about it; especially when I'm bored. I dont particularly like to come to this forum because its hard to talk to people here about anything, lol. Hence, my low amount of posts. I'm just waiting for the next league and killing time.

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Destructodave wrote:

Should "I leave and make my own game?"

If you have enthusiasm in spades, some clue of what you're doing, a lot of spare time and a few people you can work with, hell yes. We saw some pretty great games coming from small indie teams recently.

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Destructodave wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

if they have a built int rade system akin to poe.trade, the only thing that changes is that you open a game menu rather than alt tabbing to a web browser. All this other stuff like bots and rmt and drops and self found viability and whatever else youve been endlessly blabbering on about in this thread doesnt change. I presume he was presuming you were demanding changes to all this shit youve been whining about, apparently youve just been harping on endlessly about all this crap for the fun of it.

Boy you sure a condescending, hateful fellow aren't you. Honestly, I had a few drinks before I came back posting and blabbered on about life stories and essays and crap. Shit happens.

There is a difference. Its in the game, meaning people can be punished for things they are doing. Also, less people will be doing it. All the people using private indexers are gone. All the people using whoops are gone. All thats left are people who decide whether or not they want to use bots in place of those features. And, there will def. be less of those. Choices will have to be made whether you want to risk your accounts for such crap or you want to play normally. Right now you don't have to make a choice because anything you can use to abuse the economy is fair game because its outside the realm of GGG.

So your argument is since its already happening they should just let it keep happening? So since people are getting murdered and robbed every day police and lawmakers shouldn't worry about it and let it keep happening because its pointless to do anything about it?

Right now they cannot do a single thing about people abusing indexers/whoops/price fixing. Its outside of their game. Its akin to Blizzard not punishing D3 AH bot users. (They could, because it was inside their game; just like GGG can once the trade system is inside theirs).

Its also hypocritical because they will punish an in-game botter who probably has LESS effect on the economy of this game than the mass of indexers, fixers, and scanning AH stuff does outside the game. Just like D3.

Also, I find it ironic someone with 8000 posts who I've seen multiple times now talk down to people like they are trash tells me I'm whining. I really wonder if 70-80% of those posts have the same condescending, hateful tone to them. If so, I kind of feel sorry for you.

Neh you just realized an automated AH is something they will never do, and for good reason. So instead you decide to bash and brand anyone and everyone cheaters, scammers, botters who isn't on the same page as you. And you have the audacity to call him condescending and hateful. Maybe reread some of your posts, the toxic level is rising every day.

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Miská wrote:

Neh you just realized an automated AH is something they will never do, and for good reason. So instead you decide to bash and brand anyone and everyone cheaters, scammers, botters who isn't on the same page as you. And you have the audacity to call him condescending and hateful. Maybe reread some of your posts, the toxic level is rising every day.

Please tell me at what point in any of these threads I asked for an automated AH. I'll wait. Link it here.

My toxic level? I'm the only one here not calling people "kids who are bad at the game." I also dont think I ever labeled you a cheater or botter. Or him for that matter. I didn't evne label you a scammer. I just said you are full of it if you want me to believe you dont whoop items. You are labeling yourself.

Maybe reread some of yours and see who the real toxic person here is. And oh, how'd you like that demigod response? Hahahahhaha.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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Destructodave wrote:

My toxic level? I'm the only one here not calling people "kids who are bad at the game.".

Uh, bullshit you are. I've *never* called anyone that and I never will.

Rocks, glass houses, don't throw. Trite but true.

Oh come on. You know I wasn't lumping you in there. He's the only person that said it.

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Destructodave wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

if they have a built int rade system akin to poe.trade, the only thing that changes is that you open a game menu rather than alt tabbing to a web browser. All this other stuff like bots and rmt and drops and self found viability and whatever else youve been endlessly blabbering on about in this thread doesnt change. I presume he was presuming you were demanding changes to all this shit youve been whining about, apparently youve just been harping on endlessly about all this crap for the fun of it.

Boy you sure a condescending, hateful fellow aren't you.

Im being blunt with someone who is being incessantly negative and belligerent with their unrealistic opinions and expectations. Im from england, we speak in this manner, we can be abrasive, but if anyone here is being hateful its you with your negativity on subjects where I dont think youre being at all fair, measured or consistent. Youve repeatedly made claims that are not true and if you are as up to speed as you would need to be to justify the volume and insistence of your talk in this thread then you know theyre not true, and yet you state them anyway. Negative posting is one thing, thats fine, people can be highly passionate about the game and go on lengthy scathing rants about things, but if its not honest and its not in the spirit of dialogue then youre not gonna get much patience or compassion from me.




I think you vastly underestimate the amount of policing needed to stop price fixing type activities if poe.trade was simply put inside the game. the amount of grey area there, so you put a buyout of 3 exalts on an item, at least you thought u did, but u accidentally put 3 chaos, and then whispers come in and you dont sell your 3 exalt item for 3 chaos, are you now banned from trade? Who makes that call? Youre dealing with 100,000s of people playing the game who can make endless alt accounts, you expect them to investigate every situation to the point where they can make a correct call and never ban the wrong guy? Youre dealing with judgement calls, this is hugely time consuming, the amount of man hours to police the entire trade system in this game would be insane because automating it would be inaccurate, result in unjust actions taken and would be open to being gamed.

They are active against botters and rmt, but you cant stop it, they do try their best but its impossible to hold back the tide.

I think they need a currency auction house in order to get rid of currency rate fixing and remove the hassle of trade orbs for orbs, trading for essences etc, these things are different from trading for specific items, its not instant upgrades for your character. I dont think they can fully police it. I agree with you that poe.trade should be in game to remove indexers. Chris didnt say that they wont do this, he said that people want them to make trade substantially easier, and while they want to make it a bit easier in some ways they wont make it vastly easier because of how that trivializes the longevity and the value of playing. In no way did he rule out bringing poe.trade into the game, hes just ruling out having something like an instant offline buyout auction house for all items with no player interaction and extremely minimal effort and time to make the trades. So I agree with those points youre making, but chris didnt actually disagree with them, at all, he didnt say anything that rules those things out.


What I disagreed with: Youve talked about how its greed based, yet if trade was in game more people would trade and hence they would sell as many if not more trade tabs. You said theyre lying, I dont think theres any evidence of that. Youve said people cant play without poe.trade, thats obviously not true as ssf leagues have shown. You say you need to trade to play a variety of builds, again not even close to true. You say you need to trade to become wealthy, but you only need to be wealthy if you trade, so essentially thats saying nothing. The rmt, the price fixing, the botters, in practice they cannot kill these things, its not realistic to expect them to.

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quicksixteen wrote:

I find it extremely difficult to believe that you made that much currency from map drops in four weeks. I have gotten five exalted orbs and two kaom’s hearts this league and I am way behind your wealth level. What am I doing so wrong?

just not picking enough peanuts out of the poo. You doing prophecies and selling the valuable ones? You leveling gems and selling them? You selling offerings? You selling essences? Div cards? You trading all your chroms, chisels, gcp, regrets etc for chaos? You turning all ur augs into alts into jews into fusing and using them to buy exalts? You doing chaos recipe and trading all ur chaos for exalts? You wasting currency rolling maps? You wasting currency buying and modifying good gear when you can just dress in mostly self found rags and still slay the content?

I was virtually playing with nothing, most of my gear was self found, more than that what was self found and what was traded for, all happened within the first handful of days. I found multiple upgrades for my character, and then sold them in trade because I didnt NEED them, I was fine with the gear I already found and the upgrades had value to sell. So I had my gear sorted in days, I was rolling maps blue or just alch and go, so I didnt use anything, all the chroms and fusing and alts, the chaos, Im virtually using nothing and I just poured it all into exalts. You dont need good gear, you dont need to spend wealth on anything, people underestimate how much wealth they are making per hour when they play because theyre not converting/selling most of the stuff they could sell and theyre bleeding money out of every hole unnecessarily.

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Destructodave wrote:

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Miská wrote:

Neh you just realized an automated AH is something they will never do, and for good reason. So instead you decide to bash and brand anyone and everyone cheaters, scammers, botters who isn't on the same page as you. And you have the audacity to call him condescending and hateful. Maybe reread some of your posts, the toxic level is rising every day.

Please tell me at what point in any of these threads I asked for an automated AH. I'll wait. Link it here.

My toxic level? I'm the only one here not calling people "kids who are bad at the game." I also dont think I ever labeled you a cheater or botter. Or him for that matter. I didn't evne label you a scammer. I just said you are full of it if you want me to believe you dont whoop items. You are labeling yourself.

Maybe reread some of yours and see who the real toxic person here is. And oh, how'd you like that demigod response? Hahahahhaha.

I ignored your demigod lol. You probably whooped it. While you and your friend were scamming newbies together.

Oh wait, that's you that makes up stories about other people.

In all seriousnes however your 'being bad' at the game had to do with the market. Not sure what an ancient race reward has anything to do with being able to amass wealth. Since you are hating on everyone who doesn't need your so called scams and hacks (Perfectly legal stuff branded by just you as worse then botting. LOL)

But whatever bro. I don't really keep replying to people that live in their own fairy tale dreams. 90% of the stuff you write is made up out of thin air. You just blowing hot air. No facts, nothing.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

-snip-

I fail to see how its an unrealistic expectation, but ok. Stop whoops. Stop Indexers, Stop price fixers. I dont see how those are unrealistic goals to ask for. Hell, its not like I would boycott the game if all 3 didn't make it in. They are goals; things to eliminate if possible.

Fixing current price fixing issues? Yes. But who is to say that the current method of trading has to be the one implemented into the game? They could think of ways to cut down on price fixing methods. I would seriously hope they would if they went so far as implementing a trading system into the game. What would be the benefit of implementing something into the game if they dont make an effort to curb or fix the issues with the current one? It would be pointless and fruitless.

As as far as greed, you can call it whatever. I dont know if they would sell more premium tabs. Can you imagine the outcry about tabs in general if you had to buy them to partake in their own trading system? People would consider it P2W. The entire idea of Premium tabs for trading would then raise issues. As it stands they can sort of let it interact with PoE.Trade no harm, no foul. Couple that with the costs of creating their own system, they are more than happy letting it stay the same as long as there is no huge outcry. And, honestly its probably 50/50. I personally dont care either way I'll use trade and I'd use in-game. I just dont like the idea of PoE.Trade controlling the game or the problems that come with it.

And you cant site specific niche builds and players playing SSF and consider that the norm. Oh well X player did it with X build in SSF. You also are never going to find the items required to do the builds in forum threads without trading. If you wanna play that new Mara build you are going to have to trade for it. If you wanna play a duelist build, you will too. You aren't going to find build-enabling uniques unless you are lucky, so yes if you want to do other builds you are more than likely going to have to trade for the required pieces.

you can pick any skill that is even half way usable and start up an ssf character, take it to red maps and clear them. Copying an exact build and gear setup from a guy who traded may require trade, yeah, I dont see that as a concern. If you are copying other peoples builds and items then you are making a choice to do that and need to find a way to get the items. but what skill is that marauder playing? Whatever it is you can start a self found character and farm red tier maps with that skill.

Builds in this game if you take it to a level of exact, if you take it that having a few different passives or a few different items, are virtually infinite. Of course there are variations than use specific items that you may not find. Its the other way around, you can find specific niche builds that use specific niche items you may not find, but take any skill that works in endgame and you can make an endless variety of different builds with it that work using self found items.

I dont buy into the idea of build enabling uniques, theres so few of those in the game. QotF build using a QotF, take it off and put on a rare ev chest, does the build still work? Yes. Theres so few, stuff like whispering ice is build enabling and you can get most of those via div cards that you can target farm. When we say build enabling, unless the skill itself is attached to the item like whispering ice then you can just make a different variation of a build for that skill that doesnt require whatever unique is in question in 99% of situations. You need a 6L shavs and a void battery for this crit spell caster build? Well just stick on a 5L vaal regs and a rare wand/scepter/dagger, take ci, it still works, you dont have the exact setup but its still the same thing, it just has less damage but more survivability, theyre not build enabling, they are simply power upgrades. Again, 99% of cases this is what the uniques are, power boosters, you dont need the shavs and the battery to play es based crit arc, they just give you more damage. If you want to play es crit arc you just make your own build for it thats gonna function with rare items or uniques you can reliably target farm. I dont copy anyones builds, if I want to play a skill I pick up the skill gem, plot a tree in the offline skill tree and play it, if Im trading I may make it one way if Im not I might make it another way, doesnt mean making a crit arc build is off the table for me because I cant trade.

Its a creative game, problem solving, its not D3 heres your set gear and set builds that require set gear, paint by numbers, inevitable, hey everyone come play these specific builds where everyone on the ladders have the same skills and the same items. Theres your passive tree, the monsters to fight, the skill gems, the randomness of gear, find a way to make it work. Thats what the game is, if people cant make it work then they need to up their game because be it through trade of self found people are making it work with all classes and skills. If you dont consider it the same build because joe blogs is using a unique you dont have then its not the same build if jack jones is using a mirrored kitana and you dont have one, because thats what hes doing should be all have access to all mirrored items self found in order to have build freedom? I dont buy it, I dont buy that we should have access to everything and i dont buy that the items make the builds. What is he using it for? Crit 2h sword cyclone? Ok you can do that self found, might not be exactly the way hes doing it but you can make it work.