but a full blown AH would be the worst thing that could ever happen to this game.
Then again you never answered the question "Why?"...
I answered that multiple times. Just read back abit.
"
sofocle10000 wrote:
Well, you think an AH will be the worst thing ever, just like GGG seems to think, but the reality disagrees.
PoE should make the gap between trading + 0 amount of danger and farming dangerous content, a lot smaller for one.
The "trading" system, be that "asynchronous" bartering or a full blown AH should have accountability and should ensure that buyers know what they are buying, and why, and traders should also be discouraged to "flip" for profit, but they should actually be encouraged to trade difficult to obtain items a whole lot more.
Scamming should be reduced to 0, or close to it.
You shouldn't be limited on the amount of trades, but you should at least have a delay to make you think about what you buy/sell. Right now, everyone sells everything for anything. That's very cool, but let's give everyone a fair chance at buying the right item for a fair price when they actually feel they need it, as that's what "trade" should be about.
And if GGG acknowledges that a healthy economy with a multitude of currencies is such a "chore" to "balance", either increase vendor options (you know, so "sinks" should feel "worth it") or give a better access to all the various currencies, at least those used in "crafting".
Unfortunately drops should also be tuned accordingly, and "chase items", be them end game uniques or rares, should have a way smaller gap until the "next best thing".
Do I expect GGG to provide a satisfactory solution?
Ultimately yes. The problems will reside in the amount of time need for it to be reached...
Oh, and please, keep a civilised tone if you still insist to continue the conversation, as you didn't offer in any way solutions to the "trade system" necessary improvements by keeping yourself on your high horse...
See, that's the difference. You assume I'm on a high horse. I never claimed to have the solution. You however did. And I disagree with that 100%. That doesn't mean I need to come with an in your eyes suitable counter improvement whatsoever.
The issue at hand is really complicated. So complicated that even GGG themselves (Who have so much more data then we could ever dream off) said they are clueless about what to do about it. So no, I have no solution. And again whatever they decide to do, it will no longer be PoE as we know it. Everyone in this topic should realize that. The selfishness in this topic is reaching a boiling point. It's pretty much fuck everyone who likes trading, and fuck player interaction. Wich is still present right now, no matter how much you guys try to pretend it doesn't exist. It might not exist for you, because you are closed towards it. But every league I make friends using the current trading system. So maybe....it's just...you?
You are asking for a limit on trading, for a better drop rate on chase items (You for real). You are trying to destroy this game, and THANK GOD you have no say in what's gonna happen to trading in this game.
Last edited by Miská#0911 on Sep 12, 2017, 3:03:23 PM
PoE's economy is OK only in leagues, that last few months. In Standard (5+ years), it's broken as fuck!
What you don't like on completely unregulated supply/demand based economy?
Is it that the high demand quality items are too expensive?
Is it that every long term player probably has all the gear and does not want to sell it?
Is it that the long therm players accumulated astronomical wealth and can trade between each other for T1 perfectly corrupted items for 100+ exalts?
Please do share!
I dont like, that many of the best items cant be obtained anymore, even (legacy stuff). I dont like, that tons of stuff is dumped into economics every few months (as league ends).
These 2 were key factors for me to stop playing standard. Even despite i had extremely powerful gear and mirrored dagger. I just cant accept legacy leagues and stuff appearing on market out of nowhere all at once every few months.
It's funny though that you think your items will autosell when you logoff with an AH.
They will be sold!
I played D3 with AH, and that's exactly what happens. Same for WoW.
"
Miská wrote:
EVERY single game with an AH has people that undercut you in a second and then your item will never sell.
If there will be enough undercuts, and not enough buyers to buy those, your item will never sell. But you know what it means? Your item is fucking OVERPRICED, because you want for it MORE than other players are willing to pay, and MORE than other players are willing to get for it. And if your price is correct, "undercuts" will be sold out quickly, and your item will be sold, eventually.
That's not counting situations with rare items, that are "one of a kind", without any other replacements on market, even!
"
Miská wrote:
The moment an AH will be implemented people like you will storm to the forums the day after how it is impossible to sell anything at all if you aren't online 24/7, that everyone is a botter etc etc.
I've played WoW, and i can assure you, that its AH economy is flooded by bots. And even there, it was still possible to sell your good, if you dont asking too high prices. And the main problem was NOT bots that TRADE, but bots that FARM goods out of air in astronomical quantities, and flood market with them. That's exactly the reason why bots are banned in PoE!
You do realize that PoE is already in this state, its called poe.trade? Sure its more inconvenient than PoE's AH, but thats just it, its just slightly more inconvenient.
- Can I still pretty much purchase whatever item I need? Sure thing, as long as its not ultra exotic or vendor crap yes I can
- Is there a common currency that I can use to purchase these items? Sure there is, its called chaos/ex (or fusings for cheaper items)
- Does it provide an advanced indexer for searching for items? Sure it does, in fact poe.trade is even better than D3's old AH in this regard (from what I can remember)
- Is it causing high demand items to soar in price and making the lower end items cheaper? Sure is
In fact, the only real difference between poe.trade and D3 AH (apart from being slightly more inconvenient) is that D3 allowed you to use real currency, which is probably what caused it to spiral so fast. That and D3 being mechanically simpler made it much easier/simpler to just get upgraded gear cause everything in D3 at the time was just stat sticks.
Im sorry, but PoE is already at this point, in fact it has been for a while and there isn't anything that GGG can do apart from either removing trading altogether (which is not going to happen)
Last edited by deteego#6606 on Sep 12, 2017, 4:54:46 PM
You do realize that PoE is already in this state, its called poe.trade? Sure its more inconvenient than PoE's AH, but thats just it, its just slightly more inconvenient.
- Can I still pretty much purchase whatever item I need? Sure thing, as long as its not ultra exotic or vendor crap yes I can
- Is there a common currency that I can use to purchase these items? Sure there is, its called chaos/ex (or fusings for cheaper items)
- Does it provide an advanced indexer for searching for items? Sure it does, in fact poe.trade is even better than D3's old AH in this regard (from what I can remember)
- Is it causing high demand items to soar in price and making the lower end items cheaper? Sure is
In fact, the only real difference between poe.trade and D3 AH (apart from being slightly more inconvenient) is that D3 allowed you to use real currency, which is probably what caused it to spiral so fast. That and D3 being mechanically simpler made it much easier/simpler to just get upgraded gear cause everything in D3 at the time was just stat sticks.
Im sorry, but PoE is already at this point, in fact it has been for a while and there isn't anything that GGG can do apart from either removing trading altogether (which is not going to happen)
I think PoE.trade worked fine for aslong as it did. But like I mentioned before, if someone makes a good thing ment to make things easier there is always a group that will exploit that good thing. And that's what's happening at PoE.trade right now. It's gotten to a point where the toxic behaviour of a few is affecting the whole playerbase, and GGG could never allow that to continue.
Diable AH was a simple click/buy system. It really can't be much more automated then the orginal AH implemented there. It was much much more convenient then what PoE.trade is.
I have nothing against convenience. I actually like PoE.trade. Without it, nobody would ever be able to find the items they need, because a rare item in this game is completely unique. It's something GGG should have foreseen. That if the playerbase became bigger, we would need a better way to trade.
You do realize that PoE is already in this state, its called poe.trade? Sure its more inconvenient than PoE's AH, but thats just it, its just slightly more inconvenient.
- Can I still pretty much purchase whatever item I need? Sure thing, as long as its not ultra exotic or vendor crap yes I can
- Is there a common currency that I can use to purchase these items? Sure there is, its called chaos/ex (or fusings for cheaper items)
- Does it provide an advanced indexer for searching for items? Sure it does, in fact poe.trade is even better than D3's old AH in this regard (from what I can remember)
- Is it causing high demand items to soar in price and making the lower end items cheaper? Sure is
In fact, the only real difference between poe.trade and D3 AH (apart from being slightly more inconvenient) is that D3 allowed you to use real currency, which is probably what caused it to spiral so fast. That and D3 being mechanically simpler made it much easier/simpler to just get upgraded gear cause everything in D3 at the time was just stat sticks.
Im sorry, but PoE is already at this point, in fact it has been for a while and there isn't anything that GGG can do apart from either removing trading altogether (which is not going to happen)
I think PoE.trade worked fine for aslong as it did. But like I mentioned before, if someone makes a good thing ment to make things easier there is always a group that will exploit that good thing. And that's what's happening at PoE.trade right now. It's gotten to a point where the toxic behaviour of a few is affecting the whole playerbase, and GGG could never allow that to continue.
Diable AH was a simple click/buy system. It really can't be much more automated then the orginal AH implemented there. It was much much more convenient then what PoE.trade is.
I have nothing against convenience. I actually like PoE.trade. Without it, nobody would ever be able to find the items they need, because a rare item in this game is completely unique. It's something GGG should have foreseen. That if the playerbase became bigger, we would need a better way to trade.
Sure D3 AH was more conveniant, but not by a degree where it mattered much. It may have made a difference when trying to buy cheap stuff like levelling uniques (because if you don't get a cheap item fast enough the inconvenience may actually bother you) but if there is some non vendor trash item that you actually wan't, there isn't a noticeable difference. It may take 20 seconds instead of 3, but this isn't an issue
Also saying it as an "exploit" is diverging from the real issue, which is, that if you are going to put trading/economy in the game you either do it properly or dont do it at all. GGG is right that they are concerned about the pacing/progression of the game and how stuff like poe.trade is effecting it, but if this was their top priority they should have never enabled trading in the first place (believe it or not, when you don't have trading its actually very easy to control the pacing of characters with item acquisition)
This is honestly a case of GGG trying to do everything and as a result they don't do anything too well.
Last edited by deteego#6606 on Sep 12, 2017, 5:38:25 PM
Sure D3 AH was more conveniant, but not by a degree where it mattered much. It may have made a difference when trying to buy cheap stuff like levelling uniques (because if you don't get a cheap item fast enough the inconvenience may actually bother you) but if there is some non vendor trash item that you actually wan't, there isn't a noticeable difference. It may take 20 seconds instead of 3, but this isn't an issue
Also saying it as an "exploit" is diverging from the real issue, which is, that if you are going to put trading/economy in the game you either do it properly or dont do it at all. GGG is right that they are concerned about the pacing/progression of the game and how stuff like poe.trade is effecting it, but if this was their top priority they should have never enabled trading in the first place (believe it or not, when you don't have trading its actually very easy to control the pacing of characters with item acquisition)
This is honestly a case of GGG trying to do everything and as a result they don't do anything too well.
D3 was literally an AH. You found an item like you would find it on PoE.trade and then you would insta buy it, and have it in your inventory. MAJOR difference then what we have right now.
Don't forget PoE.trade was a player iniative. Originally we only had tradechat and the forum. Wich is what GGG had originally in mind, atleast for the beginning. Then the websites came up, PoE.trade among several others. By the time they realized how efficient it made trading, everyone was already hooked to it. I mean honestly, if they would shut down PoE.trade right now. I would quit instantly. It's not as easy as you make it seem for them.
You do realize that PoE is already in this state, its called poe.trade?
That's exactly what i wanted to say. No need to afraid AH with instant b/o, because PoE.trade already has all drawbacks associated with instant buyout anyway.
but a full blown AH would be the worst thing that could ever happen to this game.
Then again you never answered the question "Why?"...
I answered that multiple times. Just read back abit.
"
sofocle10000 wrote:
Well, you think an AH will be the worst thing ever, just like GGG seems to think, but the reality disagrees.
PoE should make the gap between trading + 0 amount of danger and farming dangerous content, a lot smaller for one.
The "trading" system, be that "asynchronous" bartering or a full blown AH should have accountability and should ensure that buyers know what they are buying, and why, and traders should also be discouraged to "flip" for profit, but they should actually be encouraged to trade difficult to obtain items a whole lot more.
Scamming should be reduced to 0, or close to it.
You shouldn't be limited on the amount of trades, but you should at least have a delay to make you think about what you buy/sell. Right now, everyone sells everything for anything. That's very cool, but let's give everyone a fair chance at buying the right item for a fair price when they actually feel they need it, as that's what "trade" should be about.
And if GGG acknowledges that a healthy economy with a multitude of currencies is such a "chore" to "balance", either increase vendor options (you know, so "sinks" should feel "worth it") or give a better access to all the various currencies, at least those used in "crafting".
Unfortunately drops should also be tuned accordingly, and "chase items", be them end game uniques or rares, should have a way smaller gap until the "next best thing".
Do I expect GGG to provide a satisfactory solution?
Ultimately yes. The problems will reside in the amount of time need for it to be reached...
Oh, and please, keep a civilised tone if you still insist to continue the conversation, as you didn't offer in any way solutions to the "trade system" necessary improvements by keeping yourself on your high horse...
See, that's the difference. You assume I'm on a high horse. I never claimed to have the solution. You however did. And I disagree with that 100%. That doesn't mean I need to come with an in your eyes suitable counter improvement whatsoever.
The issue at hand is really complicated. So complicated that even GGG themselves (Who have so much more data then we could ever dream off) said they are clueless about what to do about it. So no, I have no solution. And again whatever they decide to do, it will no longer be PoE as we know it. Everyone in this topic should realize that. The selfishness in this topic is reaching a boiling point. It's pretty much fuck everyone who likes trading, and fuck player interaction. Wich is still present right now, no matter how much you guys try to pretend it doesn't exist. It might not exist for you, because you are closed towards it. But every league I make friends using the current trading system. So maybe....it's just...you?
You are asking for a limit on trading, for a better drop rate on chase items (You for real). You are trying to destroy this game, and THANK GOD you have no say in what's gonna happen to trading in this game.
Nope. You aren't presenting a solution because one would either encourage "asynchronous" trade or even a full blown "AH" as you call it, although we could make do with better status checks on the current "market" which is poe.trade, heck, even just making AFK people unavailable for trade/invisible to poe.trade would be a huge advancement.
The comment regarding high horse was targeted at your tone entirely, sorry if you took it that way. But none the less, I didn't claim to have a solution, I claimed what a possible solution should target. Please pay attention.
I don't care that GGG find "trading" so complicated, they actually need to work to improve it, just like they need to work on the polish of PoE, QoL missing aspects, and God forbid, giving identity to different playstyles and "balance". How will they do it, it's up to them. They have enough options.
Let me reiterate again, for the amount of player interaction, which means talking anything else beside "Hello, I would like to buy X, stored Y, for price Z", "Do you accept alternate currency?", "Thx", I would want to see statistics as to how the "trade" process amounts to "player interaction", as GGG seem very interested in such. I would "bet the farm" that for >90% of players, the interaction resumes at just that.
Mind you, whenever I'm trading (which is quite rarely, I admit), I always try to talk with the other person, but in the most cases, they don't care, are busy or just don't want to "chat and make friends" as "time is money" in PoE.
Let me restate that there should be no limit on trade, but a delay of relisting an item which would help ensure that buyers and sellers are conscious about their endeavour with it.
I didn't ask for "a better drop rate on chase items", as I think they are fine as they are, I actually asked for better tuning and bridging the gap between them and T1-T2 items. I played close to 4K hours already, and as I am a compulsive casual n00b hoarder, I picked up and identified most of the rares that I dropped. You know how many "worthy" items I dropped? 1 mace that I happen to be using. Heck, @Snorkle_uk played 12K hours and still complains that the best pDPS dagger that dropped for him is a Bino. So please understand that itemisation is a huge problem, as that should be a very important aspect of an ARPG, in PoE it just feels "lacklustre" at best.
I might not have a say in this aspect for more than "Trade needs serious improvements", but that is a feeling that we both share. The only difference is that I also tried to offer a possible solution.
"
Miská wrote:
I mean honestly, if they would shut down PoE.trade right now. I would quit instantly. It's not as easy as you make it seem for them.
Right, as that actually highlights itemisation problems, as "trade" is the sole way to get over the "stacked deck" that we feel GGG has in place via numerous layers of RNG atop of other RNG layers. If they keep this up, they will ultimately lose their most valuable "resource", the players that also give their fair support (and I'm not talking about just money, I talk about people being invested, making lobby, bringing more friends to try PoE etc)...
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Sep 13, 2017, 12:28:16 PM
