the fall of oriath LABYRINTH

I like that the lab exists.
Because I love to mine the salt.

lab is harder than all diablo 2

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DRAGONxNOGARD wrote:

lab is harder than all diablo 2

D2 was never that hard

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DRAGONxNOGARD wrote:

ok then i dont play a poe otherwise got someone for me a build for a ranger what dont need a ascendary

Get a better connection or better hand-eye coordination. Ideally both.

As for a Ranger build that needs no Ascendancy? Most Raider builds do not require the Raider bonuses to mechanically function. Pick one, go. See how you do. If it sucks, pick again. This whole "Accommodate my specific request or I'll stop playing forever!" attitude will get you nowhere, though.

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Phrazz wrote:

Then you don't read enough. A LOT of people hate the lab BECAUSE of the design and and HOW it's implemented into the game. A LOT of people find the lab UTTERLY boring and meaningless, and view it as this pit of vomit they have to force them self through to get the most out of their character. The question really boils down to this: When so many people (and yes, MANY) hate lab because it's boring as hell, why not add some alternatives? In a video game, first and foremost designed to be FUN, why have this "forced" content that so many people hate?

I used to be like you, defending the lab. I even used most of your arguments. Then I became a better person than you, and started hating it (<- that last part was a joke). But after I started to make more and more characters, the fact that I had to do the lab "soon", made it an agonizing pain, taking away a lot of the fun of leveling new characters. So again, just thinking of the lab while leveling is reducing the enjoyment of A LOT of players. I really do not see why they can't add some alternative. Bribe Izaro, or something, marking out character as a "coward", but make us Ascend in exchange for 30 chaos or something. Just SOMETHING else.

"Pay Thirty Chaos to Ascend" is just...possibly the actual worst idea I've read in the last month.

Again - if the Labyrinth is really that off-putting to so many people, then the Labyrinth needs adjustment. But being able to just up and pay an NPC to complete content for you is thoroughly undesirable. How would folks who push hard on the Shaper feel if I could go hit up a vendor in town somewhere, pay thirty chaos, and get a boxful of Shaper/Guardian drops and Atlas completion for the Shaper's Realm/Guardian maps?

I know, I know - "we're not saying Lab runners shouldn't get stuff, or that we want to get Lab rewards for free! We just want our Ascendancy points without having to run the Lab!" Except you're sort of exactly saying that Labyrinth specialists shouldn't get stuff, and that you should be handed Ascendancy points for free, by suggesting that doing the Labyrinth should be completely optional and in no way required in order to earn Labyrinth rewards?

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Phrazz wrote:

Then you don't read enough. A LOT of people hate the lab BECAUSE of the design and and HOW it's implemented into the game. A LOT of people find the lab UTTERLY boring and meaningless, and view it as this pit of vomit they have to force them self through to get the most out of their character. The question really boils down to this: When so many people (and yes, MANY) hate lab because it's boring as hell, why not add some alternatives? In a video game, first and foremost designed to be FUN, why have this "forced" content that so many people hate?

People who are content or happy with the lab do not go around posting hundred complaints about it.
So I dare to say that most players like the lab and the people who hate it are the minority (as are people who really enjoy it above all else).

If you read some customer complaint studies you will find out that people who are unhappy with a service or product are the most vocal ones. Those that have average or mixed feelings over them are usually silent. Same goes for positive ones. Extremely happy customers are still less likely to post online their feelings as opposed to those who are extremely unhappy.

Unless I see some statistical data that more people hate the lab than those who are okay with it, this sort of argumentation is baseless.

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1453R wrote:

"Pay Thirty Chaos to Ascend" is just...possibly the actual worst idea I've read in the last month.

It wasn't a suggestion, it was a result of frustration, on the search of what I wrote several times; "or something". Anything. Guess you missed that part :)

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1453R wrote:

Again - if the Labyrinth is really that off-putting to so many people, then the Labyrinth needs adjustment.

Yes.

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1453R wrote:

I know, I know - "we're not saying Lab runners shouldn't get stuff, or that we want to get Lab rewards for free! We just want our Ascendancy points without having to run the Lab!" Except you're sort of exactly saying that Labyrinth specialists shouldn't get stuff, and that you should be handed Ascendancy points for free, by suggesting that doing the Labyrinth should be completely optional and in no way required in order to earn Labyrinth rewards?

Jesus, please stop. This is the fourth? Fifth? Time you put words in my mouth. NO, that is NOT exactly what I'm saying. "Lab specialists" don't run the map for Ascendancy points, they run it for Enchantments and drops. Did I mention those at all? No. Did I want them "for free"? No. Did i mention that Ascendancy point should be "free"? "Handed to me"? No.

I'm not looking for a free pass. I'm looking for something different. I don't find the lab hard at all, so farming 30 chaos is FAR more time consuming that running the end game lab. So even my bullshit "suggestion" wouldn't be a free pass. But - I rather watch paint dry than to run the lab. THAT'S the problem, not the time, not the difficulty, not the effort.

But I find it hard to have a debate with someone putting words in my mouth. But thanks for the short debate.

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SodanKerjuu wrote:

People who are content or happy with the lab do not go around posting hundred complaints about it.
So I dare to say that most players like the lab and the people who hate it are the minority (as are people who really enjoy it above all else).

I know my part about surveys and how to read them. And I'm fully aware of the "voices of the minority", and that the lab might even be such a case. That does not change the fact that - in comparison to PoE's amount of concurrent players, and the amount of hate the lab gets, we ARE talking about "A LOT" of players. I never used the word majority. I know very well that "A LOT" of players like the lab. But I have yet to see a serious suggestion about "removing it for everyone".

So...

If "A LOT" of people desire, say...Grinding Gear to eliminate or completely rework Vaal Pact, say, because instant leech breaks the game in half and causes so many other problems, does that mean GGG's obligated to do so? Me, I'd love to see Vaal Pact retuned to respect the same leeching rules as everything else, but no matter how loud "A LOT" of people are over VP being horseshit, Grinding Gear doesn't really seem to care. Because more people seem to be just fine with being able to ignore leech rules for no reason.

"A LOT" of people wanting the Labyrinth excised from the game doesn't mean the Labyrinth should actually be excised from the game. It's certainly a cautionary note for Grinding Gear, cause for investigation into why people so strongly dislike a very resource-intensive, development-heavy piece of content, and it's likely why we haven't seen more proliferation of Labyrinth-like mechanics throughout the game...but even a big bucketful of vocal critics don't get to yell "HEY! GET RID OF THIS THING I DON'T LIKE!" and get listened to, any more than bucketfuls of vocal critics have gotten listened to before.

As for "let me have my Ascendancies without needing to run the Labyrinth because I hate it"...all right. What are you willing to do instead? Do NOT say "complete a special maP", because 'Special Map' is exactly what the Labyrinth is. Are you ready for the Bazarr of BUllfuckery that would be the notions I've seen in some reading on the subject for shit like "Make Ascendancies like skill books you can sell or transfer, so I can just buy them from other players!"

NO FUCK THAT. First of all it completely short-circuits the entirety of the Ascendancy expansion for someone to be able to just hurl currency at something and get it for pennies on the dollar, and second of all I don't want four thousand Ascendancy point skill books clogging my inventory forever because not a damn soul will buy these things after Hour 3 of a league.

Just...no. Can we please just maybe update the Lab, instead of watching people try and tear Ascendancy into tiny little itty-bitty unrecognizable pieces?

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DRAGONxNOGARD wrote:

lab is harder than all diablo 2

But what about Path of Diablo? I haven't played that yet.

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1453R wrote:

So...

Spoiler

If "A LOT" of people desire, say...Grinding Gear to eliminate or completely rework Vaal Pact, say, because instant leech breaks the game in half and causes so many other problems, does that mean GGG's obligated to do so? Me, I'd love to see Vaal Pact retuned to respect the same leeching rules as everything else, but no matter how loud "A LOT" of people are over VP being horseshit, Grinding Gear doesn't really seem to care. Because more people seem to be just fine with being able to ignore leech rules for no reason.

"A LOT" of people wanting the Labyrinth excised from the game doesn't mean the Labyrinth should actually be excised from the game. It's certainly a cautionary note for Grinding Gear, cause for investigation into why people so strongly dislike a very resource-intensive, development-heavy piece of content, and it's likely why we haven't seen more proliferation of Labyrinth-like mechanics throughout the game...but even a big bucketful of vocal critics don't get to yell "HEY! GET RID OF THIS THING I DON'T LIKE!" and get listened to, any more than bucketfuls of vocal critics have gotten listened to before.

As for "let me have my Ascendancies without needing to run the Labyrinth because I hate it"...all right. What are you willing to do instead? Do NOT say "complete a special maP", because 'Special Map' is exactly what the Labyrinth is. Are you ready for the Bazarr of BUllfuckery that would be the notions I've seen in some reading on the subject for shit like "Make Ascendancies like skill books you can sell or transfer, so I can just buy them from other players!"

NO FUCK THAT. First of all it completely short-circuits the entirety of the Ascendancy expansion for someone to be able to just hurl currency at something and get it for pennies on the dollar, and second of all I don't want four thousand Ascendancy point skill books clogging my inventory forever because not a damn soul will buy these things after Hour 3 of a league.

Just...no. Can we please just maybe update the Lab, instead of watching people try and tear Ascendancy into tiny little itty-bitty unrecognizable pieces?

Vaal Pact is a major source of controversy but that's for other threads, this is Lab discussion.

Lab as it is now is basically good. It's a very nice change up to regular zones and maps. The only problem is the lag of some of the more complicated traps. Too many spinning traps and the lag goes up and you end up trying to move and the server isn't processing input fast enough so our exile does not move soon enough or moves in the wrong direction. Lag is #1 reason to hate the Lab. My Internet link is as good as can be expected from my home in SW Florida to either WDC or Dallas (well under 100 ms latency) and still the delay between my mouse movement and exile response time can and is too long when negotiating the tougher trap layouts. Other than that Lab is very good.

Entirely removing the Lab isn't the right thing to do either. If removed then what is the alternative for Ascendancy points? More "special" maps. No!. Getting them for killing a specific end of Act final boss doesn't seem quite right either and I haven't heard of a better alternative challenge to get 2 points. Fortunately GGG isn't going to remove it no matter how many and how loud players shout. Tweak it yes (slightly shorter is better) but remove it NO.

No f'cking way should Ascendancy points be sellable! We all need to run them to get the points. No way should rich players be able to buy their way out of doing Lab runs. The saying "get good or get out" most definitely applies here and it shouldn't be a walk in the park to get them. Yes uber Izaro is a pain in the ass to kill and not get killed but weakening him just for the wimpy cry baby players, "oh it's too hard", is wrong on many levels. Does the Lab cause some players to quit? Sure it does. If GGG reduces Izaro damage to make killing him easy-peazy will some players quit? Of course they will! So leaving difficulty where it is now is the right way forward and I haven't heard GGG say anything about changing Izaro difficulty so it'll stay the same for FoO.

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1453R wrote:

So...

If "A LOT" of people desire, say...Grinding Gear to eliminate or completely rework Vaal Pact...

Your comparisons are - again - way off. The whole deal about the lab is that there are no alternatives. No choices. No freedom. There's ONE lab. There's close to ONE way to go. Vaal Pact? One single key node amongst many. You do not, by any means, HAVE to take it, if you know what you're doing.

The way I view it, is that adding some alternatives to the Ascendancy points won't hurt the game at all. It might still be a challenge, please, make it a challenge. But a different kind, please. The lab will still be there. Pinatas. Enchantments and so on.

But hey, this is whining. I do not demand changes. I just feel that the amount of people disliking the lab should mean something to GGG.