Even Wyatt Chang understood why instant leech is a terrible mechanic

Grepman, you're absolutely right - I did not read your post history. I replied to your more recent posts on a stand alone basis. With that in mind, I do struggle to reconcile your position in your earlier posts (that you have (kindly) repeated for me), and the position you stated in more recent posts (inferring that one shots are an expected part of any "nightmare or whatever" end game). In any case, I'm thrilled that, in fact, we agree!

Cheers,
P.

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Slaanesh69 wrote:

I was appalled when I learned of the diminishing returns on armor mitigation at high damage. The fact that it is not a fixed mitigation across the board is what crippled life builds, because armor and life go hand-in-hand imho (or life and evade depending on whether you are red or green har har).

Being able to understand what your actual armor mitigation is ala character sheet rather than have it flat-out lie to you would go a long way towards being able to make a life build workable again.

it kind of has to be that way though. If you check out the formula and put some numbers in ull see armour is still pretty effective against big hits.

Heres the problem with that % number being real. You hit 80% pys reduction, sounds good? Well evasion and es builds dont have that, say they have 3 endurance up theyre at 12%. Think about the damage u take from ele when you have 80% all resist, now think of the damage you take when you have 12% all resist, from +5% max res to -63% max res, its lethal. Armour chars would take virtually no damage from monsters that would 1 shot a 16k es build, where does that leave 6k life evasion builds? How do you balance phys damage in the game when armour is that good?

To make it balanced armour would have to have a lot lower phys reduction, like the kind of figures you already get against 8k phys damage type hits, so all you would be doing is taking the smaller hits where you really do have 80% reduction and nerfing armour in those situations to also give you the smaller amount u get against the big hits.

Armour could be buffed, sure, but not to that extent.

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mrpetrov wrote:

Grepman, you're absolutely right - I did not read your post history. I replied to your more recent posts on a stand alone basis. With that in mind, I do struggle to reconcile your position in your earlier posts (that you have (kindly) repeated for me), and the position you stated in more recent posts (inferring that one shots are an expected part of any "nightmare or whatever" end game). In any case, I'm thrilled that, in fact, we agree!

Cheers,
P.

fair enough, Im glad we're on the same page- we don't have to agree necessarily :)

but I was just pointing out there are people who do think one-shots and high damage should be removed, which I staunchly am against.

I agree with you on instant leech throughout this thread. I like one shots. and they don't even happen that often in the game, only under 'right' circumstances. majority of so-called oneshots can be quickly debunked in a video, as they arent real 'one-shots' in sense of one hit kill.

the only one shots that are sorta iffy to me are offscreen ones.

but in something like invasion I really loved them (even the offscreen ones). that feeling that from level 1 you always can be instagibbed by one baddie randomly placed in an area, was absolutely fantastic.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Slaanesh69 wrote:

I was appalled when I learned of the diminishing returns on armor mitigation at high damage. The fact that it is not a fixed mitigation across the board is what crippled life builds, because armor and life go hand-in-hand imho (or life and evade depending on whether you are red or green har har).

Being able to understand what your actual armor mitigation is ala character sheet rather than have it flat-out lie to you would go a long way towards being able to make a life build workable again.

it kind of has to be that way though. If you check out the formula and put some numbers in ull see armour is still pretty effective against big hits.

Heres the problem with that % number being real. You hit 80% pys reduction, sounds good? Well evasion and es builds dont have that, say they have 3 endurance up theyre at 12%. Think about the damage u take from ele when you have 80% all resist, now think of the damage you take when you have 12% all resist, from +5% max res to -63% max res, its lethal. Armour chars would take virtually no damage from monsters that would 1 shot a 16k es build, where does that leave 6k life evasion builds? How do you balance phys damage in the game when armour is that good?

To make it balanced armour would have to have a lot lower phys reduction, like the kind of figures you already get against 8k phys damage type hits, so all you would be doing is taking the smaller hits where you really do have 80% reduction and nerfing armour in those situations to also give you the smaller amount u get against the big hits.

Armour could be buffed, sure, but not to that extent.

thing is, there are always those people who think that armour does literally nothing against big hits, whereas its simply not as effective, but still near at linear returns.

I think the bigger problem is that what you said was all true in the open beta/release/2.0 game, where phys hits were majority of the time the most dangerous ones. so armour having close to exponential returns meant youd be simply unkillable by, say, uber izaro with like 25k armour, which is fairly easy to get.

as game started shifting away from phys hits being the dangerous thing and introduced many ways to reduce phys damage, elemental damage reduction became more important. and armour doesnt do anything against those. in some cases, armour is great when paired with an avoidance mechanic. hybrid ar/ev builds are actually quite sturdy. block and armour is EXCELLENT. its just it cannot be the major defense anymore, but rather a supplement. whereas block or evasion can. and instant leech can.

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I_NO wrote:

Shit developer in a shit game grats. That I even play right now.

There's nothing wrong instant leech because mobs hit too fucking hard end of story. Take care of the mobs reduce mob damage take out reflect etc what the fuck ever then you can fuck with it.

Other then that stop trying to think it's bad right now.

The point is for GGG during the rebalance for 3.0.0 to minimize/eliminate instant leech and then the mobs don't need to hit as hard and the bosses don't need to one-shot us as much as they do unless your build is not endgame viable (crap build). I agree with Wyatt Cheng in that if our health can go from full to low just from a single mob hit or single high rare/unique and then with instant leech go back to full in a second or two then the play mechanics are out of balance and builds will all be designed around speed killing for the instant leech off of mobs instead of any kind of defensive build strategy. This is bad and sad that PoE has gone this way.

PoE 3.0.0 would be the perfect place for GGG to rebalance everything back to pre-ascendancy power creep speed killing levels to emphasize playing skills over single shot mob killing maximum dps builds. I don't have any confidence that GGG will rebalance for a slower pace and for playing skills over sheer dps speed killing but it would be nice (even if it's only a dream vision of a better F2P PoE).

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grepman wrote:

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mrpetrov wrote:

Grepman, you're absolutely right - I did not read your post history. I replied to your more recent posts on a stand alone basis. With that in mind, I do struggle to reconcile your position in your earlier posts (that you have (kindly) repeated for me), and the position you stated in more recent posts (inferring that one shots are an expected part of any "nightmare or whatever" end game). In any case, I'm thrilled that, in fact, we agree!

Cheers,
P.

fair enough, Im glad we're on the same page- we don't have to agree necessarily :)

but I was just pointing out there are people who do think one-shots and high damage should be removed, which I staunchly am against.

I agree with you on instant leech throughout this thread. I like one shots. and they don't even happen that often in the game, only under 'right' circumstances. majority of so-called oneshots can be quickly debunked in a video, as they arent real 'one-shots' in sense of one hit kill.

the only one shots that are sorta iffy to me are offscreen ones.

but in something like invasion I really loved them (even the offscreen ones). that feeling that from level 1 you always can be instagibbed by one baddie randomly placed in an area, was absolutely fantastic.

To each his own i guess, i personally hate the idea of oneshots, you can stack 10k life and killed in 1 hit by a boss or monster(boss slams,bearers,volatile etc) stuff like that makes people go with 4k life and dps stacking so they oneshot everything in the screen before they get hit. Thats why ranged and totems have been king in this game since open beta, go as melee and youre simply gimping yourself and risking yourself to all of these 1 shots that do not affect characters that go ranged or totem in any way since they do not have to get close to bosses to get slammed, they do not need to get close to bearers or volatile mods and other stuff that 1 shots you because you are close to it.

Its been the exact same situation as balance goes since open beta, its like ggg is running around in circles now, everyone is still using ranged and totems, even fucking melee has totems now lol.. because going pure melee is inferior since youll risk yourself to unecesarry 1shots to deal your damage, which is lower than the damage ranged and totem characters do.

And all this ties down to the original post about leech mechanics, why do they add the 1 shot stuff? So the high dps VP leechers can die, since the only way to kill them is via 1 shot. But of course people who leech the normal way or who are not crit and dont use acuities still die to this because they balanced those things against instant leech, which is stupid considering a large part of builds do not use instant leech and could be killed off by other things instead of instantly via the 1 shot method(or death in half a second by some shotgun spells)

This is why i hate the 1 shot shit in this game, its made to kill a certain type of build that can not die otherwise(VP or acuity), but it affects all builds and ruins the gameplay experience, instead of keeping this in the game they should simply look at the builds who can not die any other way because of the instant leech stuff, not add more stupid shit that kills any character in 1 hit.

An idea from a guy who's not played for years yet.

0. Lower damage accross the board but not too much.
1. Lower the one-shot ability of mobs, not bosses (read Uniques).
2.a. VP should block ES recharge same as it blocks HP regen.
2.b. Ghost Reaver applies ES leech at 50% rate.
3. Vaal is supposed to be 'corrupted/random' so make it reduce a random stat for every mob it hits for 2 seconds by 10% (multiple reduce allowed).
3.b. If you hit so many mobs you get more reduced stats than the amount of stats there is, no double draining. You'll get it 2nd time you hit.
4. Drain duration is fixed and not affected by any passive/items/flasks, except temp. chains (because time)


Make sure channeling isn't counted as 1 attack/spell. A normal mob drains 1 stat, blue 2, rare 5 and unique 10 or whatever your flask recharge rate/kill is. For attack stats don't differentiate between phy/ele/chaos, just plain damage, same with defenses and resists.

All this should nerf VP considerably yet still keep it usable for those want instant leech (now with a price however)

If anyone has trouble understanding: let's say we use BF and release at 2 stages, stages and the explosion afterwards hitting same 1 blue and 1 normal mob.
1. 1st stage lowers 3 stats, let them be damage, attack/cast speed and mana regen.
2. 2nd stage lower 3 stats, let's say move speed, a/c. speed and evasion. However 2nd stage was under the 1st drain effect.
3. explosion causes for example resists, charge duration and flask duration to go down while effects of 1. and 2. are in place (2 sec dur.)
That means we hit 2nd stage with 10% LESS stats, explosion with 20% less atk speed and 10% less others, and we'll still have 20% less res and the other reductions until effects of every instance wear off gradually.
Might not look much, but imagine hitting a 20 mob magic pack and 40 of your stats get drained (or whatever there actually is after consolidating damage defense and resist types) for 2 seconds.

P.S. what a pain to write on mobile...

If you stop pretending that Woodful and Christopher care about making Poe a great game, if you stop injecting ethos and passion into the equation BUT RATHER SOLELY DEAL WITH THE FACTS AS POSITED, then there is only one conclusion to make - the game is exactly the way those two want it to be.

It's missing every single feature that every RPG has in 2017, it's missing features that were required for a game to have in 1997.

If Poe was just say, bad netcode, or rain eating all your CPU cycles, or ground effects making input lag reach into the multiple thousands of miliseconds, and lingering area-of-effect stalking your CPU, that asset loading isn't done in a manner that was industry-standard in 1995, no sliders on speculars, gems not being intuitive, if it was just Tier One uniques that drop one every 3k hrs played only to be worse than iLvl 3 whites, if it was ONLY one of these things, you would say, ok, slight oversight.

But then you stop injecting ethos, you stop lending them credence when they make bold-face lies, you stop letting them get away with wasting resources on xbox 1 when 100+ people are waiting to have their supporter unique make it into the game, and you see, the game is shit as a design decision. It's not that they are trying they darndest, it's not "well the talent just isn't there", it's not "well, unforseen exigencies have befallen po' wittle us, woe is me", it's not the playerbase keeps readjusting their desired feature prioritization, it is instead, Christopher and Jonathan have the game EXACTLY where they want it - unplayable and a major way to stress out the player base.

Leech wasn't mistakenly coded in, Vaal Pact wasn't scooted over on the tree by a Gremlin - these are decisions made to make the game more in line with how these guys want it to be.

Stop pretending there is a good reason these "mistakes" made it into the game- take the redpill and see GGG for what it is, a troll company.

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bSun0000 wrote:

"We don't need insta-leech, we must learn to evade attacks".. Go on, play with something like Cyclone skill and evade boss'es attacks. Evasion without instaleech in this game are completely sux, one single lag or desync will kill you and no matter how good you are.

Saying that we need insta-leech to compensate for GGG's failure to code their custom game engine to work smoothly with low latency by now is another illogical viewpoint. If GGG would devote more energy into reducing lag then there wouldn't be the need for instant leech or for players to be worried about lag death (I never worried about lag death party playing D3 and D3:RoS ever). Broken game play due to overloaded game servers is the fault of poor server/client design. Hooray, PoE can't be hacked because all the critical calculations are all done on the server. Great, but if that makes PoE unplayable because the server is taking too long to process through all calculations needed for the next frame to be displayed (and power creep just exacerbates the problem) then we all lose from an unplayable arpg.