Even Wyatt Chang understood why instant leech is a terrible mechanic

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grepman wrote:

why should there be a way to facetank in the first place? clearly a ton of things in the game are designed to NOT be facetanked

if you can facetank content all it does is make all content and mobs as homogenous as they can be while making any build that can facetank the best way to play

if one looks at Kripp old video (circa early 2013) why one will never be comfortable in poe, capped leech is actually one of his main points.

Because its a play style and thats what barbarians and battle mages do. Not everyone likes kitting. Thats homogeneous.

It wouldnt be best way to play if you had to give up a ton of DPS to do tanking. I think back when I used to have 100% all resits with flasks. I ran all three purity so no DPS there. Now nobody even bothers with purities. Anyway I did no DPS hardly so it wasnt really popular way to play.

Today cant even play that way

Today - Best "defense" in the game is stack ES DPS and leech. Ridiculous. Best defenses is also best offenses. So everyone does this.

Max block dead, Max resists dead, evasion dead, armor dead. So lame.

People have to stop hating on everything some people say based on particular things they said or did

This type of logic is so stupid, its like if Hitler said " the sky is blue" and some people would automaticly say NO! its not blue, you are Hitler therefor you are wrong

The dude is pretty right about the situation even if he participated in D3, in the early POE there was a fucking good reason why Life on hit was gated behind lgoh gem, Cybil paw and is present in so low amounts on items

"if the combat pacing and dominant builds are such that all players are geared to survive the biggest possible hit from a monster and instantly heal to full then there’s no room for that differentiation."

+1

Awesome, I think someone actually compared a critique of instant leech to Hitler. I love the internet!

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grepman wrote:

regen isnt broken in any way
non-instant leech is the same thing as regen, its just a conditional regen that can stack up up to your max leech rate

regen is hard limited by amount of nodes in the tree, and if one has played an RF toon trying to pick up as many nodes as possible, they would know it kinda caps at below 20% no matter what for 99% of builds. and even getting to 14% regen is non-trivial, with you having to sacrifice a lot of nodes.

and guess what, default max leech rate is also 20%. and to up this you need to invest a fuckton in leech nodes. or use slayer.

remind me, how much investment do instant leech builds do to support its mechanic ? oh thats right either 0 (acuities) or one + travel (VP)

instant leech is bad in any game because it scales off damage and becomes a form of defense

regen isnt a 'defense', instant leech is. we went from ES being a defensive layer above life to it replacing life pool altogether and from leech being a sustain mechanic to being the only defense needed in the game. that scales off offense. that can leech tank content that is clearly designed to NOT be tanked.

its a fucking shame in a game that was defense-first in closed and open beta.

when people were afk tanking the hardest bosses in the game with regen tanks and posting videos the general vibe was that actually yes, what they were doing it broken and the thing to do is have a good cry about it. Es regen tanks just afk palace dominus when he was the top map boss, life based regen tanks literally afk against uber atziri for 20 mins and theyre still alive at full life. Not as long as they leech from their flask they can sustain, literally immortal builds that cannot be killed by these bosses without needing to do anything, no need to leech, no need to use flasks, no need to move, passively immortal.

I agree about the facetanking thing, not everything should be facetanked cause why would u do anything else if u could just facetank everything? Doesnt mean u kite everything but you avoid the 1 big slam right? The slam should always be a killer imo.

I dont see people saying life on hit is broken, but its instant. Its limited by how much the return can be. instant leech also has that limitation, right now its not limited enough and the wrong sort of builds can abuse it, but the concept of an instant return of life when you attack is not inherently broken. The reality of it right now in poe is broken in certain situations but it would be wrong to suggest that the only way it could be fixed is to remove it entirely imo. It might turn out to be the best way to fix it, I dont feel like that will happen though. If they limit it the way loh is, leech applies instantly to a max of X return per hit, that fixes it right as long as X is balanced?

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

The good times of having Hatred + Grace (with old IR) or Determination + Purity (with max res) + Clarity as melee, I felt really tanky. On top of that, Inner Force to make my auras stronger and elemental adaptation to mitigate with elemental damage.

On my melee chars in open beta i was running hatred + grace AND determination + purity... and vitality, anger, wrath and haste all at the same time.

Looking back on it that was a totally stupid time for auras in the game lol. I still feel like 2 auras costing you 100% reserve and therefor you need an auranode capable tree or to level an enlighten just to run hatred + grace is not good, its hurt budget/noob melee a lot. With the last set of mana changes though at least the enlighten only needs to be a lvl3, maybe a lvl2 if you bomb enough passives into % mana, a small inch back from an awful stride forward imo.

Go tell some noob whos essentially playing self found and has never got past lvl50 he needs a lvl2 or 3 enlighten just to have both acceptable defense and offense at the same time though... yeah ok, hf with that. That guy is handicapped in gear, in passives and now also in auras, was that necessary? ah well, it happened.

I said it 100x if they ever offer a DL offline version i'm DL 1.0. So much diversity in play compared to now. Sure some stuff was broken like always but block was good, saffels max res was good, etc. What would be really cool is todays monsters atlas and maps with 1.0 gameplay/items/tree. hehe Not sure how far we get with our 20K dps but wouldnt be face roll 99% of time like today thats for sure

Oh and VP was only 40% effect back then and by marader. Not so popular.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Because its a play style and thats what barbarians and battle mages do. Not everyone likes kitting. Thats homogeneous.

no its not a playstyle, its a symptom of a bad design.

engaging mobs in melee != facetanking. facetanking is standing in anything and everything and being able to just mash one button and stay in place without fear of dying.

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Not everyone likes kitting. Thats homogeneous.

no one said anything about kiting, the fact you think that theres nothing in between facetanking and kiting is again, a symptom of bad design.

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Today - Best "defense" in the game is stack ES DPS and leech. Ridiculous. Best defenses is also best offenses. So everyone does this.

Max block dead, Max resists dead, evasion dead, armor dead. So lame.

its not really dead, its just you have to invest a ton vs not investing shit and being better. so yeah, there isnt much of a choice

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

when people were afk tanking the hardest bosses in the game with regen tanks and posting videos the general vibe was that actually yes, what they were doing it broken and the thing to do is have a good cry about it. Es regen tanks just afk palace dominus when he was the top map boss, life based regen tanks literally afk against uber atziri for 20 mins and theyre still alive at full life. Not as long as they leech from their flask they can sustain, literally immortal builds that cannot be killed by these bosses without needing to do anything, no need to leech, no need to use flasks, no need to move, passively immortal.

and they have always had hard tradeoffs. doing little damage. pigeonholed into very, VERY specific uniques and items, classes and passives. none of this applies to ES and instant leech. none of it. you can literally make an ES toon with VP for any class and build that can get ES nodes and self-cast/attack at a half-decent rate.

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I agree about the facetanking thing, not everything should be facetanked cause why would u do anything else if u could just facetank everything? Doesnt mean u kite everything but you avoid the 1 big slam right? The slam should always be a killer imo.

exactly. degen is one of main problems - regen is countered by degen and your overall sustain goes DOWN as you stand in it. instant leech doesnt care about degen. shapers beam - who cares about degen ? not instant leechtanks. each time you start degenening you leech to full- BAM

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I dont see people saying life on hit is broken, but its instant.

because its not based off damage, its based off number of hits. number of hits is limited. also LGOH is limited to attacks. you are thus always limited by num of attacks*lgoh amounts * number of targets, no matter if you do 1 damage or 1 billion damage. it has a hard cap that only increased by the amount of targets you hit with an attack, which generally is limtied to some very specific skills

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Its limited by how much the return can be. instant leech also has that limitation,

each MORE multipliers multiply your damage, multiplying your leech by that multiplier

how much do they multiply your lgoh by ? oh thats right, ONE

LGOH is designed well in the game, because multiple projectiles and chain, which is the best way to hit many things at once, get a significant damage downside and are in general limited. also limited to attacks which means youre limited to fast-hitting attacks like cyclone or multi-hitters like LA.

I agree that instant life return isnt inherently bad. instant life LEECH based on damage is inherently bad. the problem is that its binary - if its small, its useless, if its big its replacement for any defense. as such, it is better not existing at all.

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grepman wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

when people were afk tanking the hardest bosses in the game with regen tanks and posting videos the general vibe was that actually yes, what they were doing it broken and the thing to do is have a good cry about it. Es regen tanks just afk palace dominus when he was the top map boss, life based regen tanks literally afk against uber atziri for 20 mins and theyre still alive at full life. Not as long as they leech from their flask they can sustain, literally immortal builds that cannot be killed by these bosses without needing to do anything, no need to leech, no need to use flasks, no need to move, passively immortal.

and they have always had hard tradeoffs. doing little damage. pigeonholed into very, VERY specific uniques and items, classes and passives. none of this applies to ES and instant leech. none of it. you can literally make an ES toon with VP for any class and build that can get ES nodes and self-cast/attack at a half-decent rate.

sure, people will still cry about though right? That might even make them cry more, omg have to play X build and have X items to do endgame content etc. You dont need vp to do any content right now, the difference between vp and not vp atm is not vp has to take 1 step to the side rather than stand in the shaper beam while they dps, and that 1 step to the side is enough for people to say its vp or bust.

Hardly any thing Wyatt Chang says is credible to me.

He will always be the guy who said Diablo 3 is just a game you play for a few hours before you log into WoW for the night.