Donald Trump and US politics

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TheAnuhart wrote:

So releasing full tax returns would either uncover the deep issues with Trump, and yes, uncover illegal business.

Or show that he operated on the right side of the law. Which, as you say, is what matters. I'd also add that there are other reasons why a president's involvement with Russian oligarchs, mafia, corrupt foreign governments/officials, laundering, etc, etc, OR NOT matter.


Now who is it who is preventing these tax returns from being produced? Me? You? Law? or Trump alone?


The net is closing in, regardless.

The amount of smoke is becoming choking and everything is starting to link together in ways where there just has to be more than a small fire. It's an inferno.

Trump releasing his tax returns would mean that the media would cherry pick bad looking (not even actually bad, just bad looking) parts of it and spin stories around it for the next 8 years. Yes, Trump certainly did some shady business. Turns out if you want to do business in corrupt countries like Azerbaijan, you have to cozy up to the oligarchs there. Big woop. I can already see the headlines, Trump is an Iranian agent and wants to nuke NYC because they voted for Hillary.

If I were him I wouldn't release my tax returns either.

Here's how I like to look at a leader of a democracy.

Imagine they had 4 years granted dictatorship. What would the country, and in the case of a power the size of USA, the world look like after that 4 years.

Of course in reality, there is opposition, the would be dictator can only push against resistance.


Can you imagine Trump as a dictator? Similarly with Hillary. The results wouldn't be too much different on the whole between the two. The world and the majority of the population of USA would be worse off. World wars, rich get richer, middle class smaller.


Then I look at Bernie. What a different picture I have. But opposition exists for a reason and an American dictatorship isn't a thing for a reason. But that doesn't stop the elected power from pushing in that same direction.

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Xavderion wrote:

Trump releasing his tax returns would mean that the media would cherry pick bad looking (not even actually bad, just bad looking) parts of it and spin stories around it for the next 8 years. Yes, Trump certainly did some shady business. Turns out if you want to do business in corrupt countries like Azerbaijan, you have to cozy up to the oligarchs there. Big woop. I can already see the headlines, Trump is an Iranian agent and wants to nuke NYC because they voted for Hillary.

If I were him I wouldn't release my tax returns either.

Actually it wouldn't, because powers far above the media would be investigating, indicting and removing Trump.

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morbo wrote:

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Budget_player_cadet wrote:

Also, not even that: White House Slammed by Federal Ethics Chief for Not Disciplining Kellyanne Conway.

That's the most shady business practice that you can come up with? Do you own an iPphone, by any chance? :P

Not really, it's just that one of Trump's inner circle blatantly and obviously broke the rules, and the people responsible for punishing her just... won't. Even after the ethics board pointed out that this is clearly a breach of federal ethics rules. They even went out of their way to claim, based on nothing, that these rules just... don't apply to the white house. That's worrying, wouldn't you say?

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Yes, only legality matters. We have all different morals & ethical opinions, so only what's written on the paper and is equal for all of us, can be used as a basis.

Well okay then. So someone who made his fortune by (legally) finding gullible investors, making a failed business, and paying himself massive (but legal) dividends for the use of his name before the whole thing went tits-up and he moved on to find another business, is a good businessman because he made money and didn't break the law? I'm not even talking about Trump, I just mean in general, someone who provides nothing of value but the ability to convince people to give him money for his name is a good businessman?

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morbo wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Now who is it who is preventing these tax returns from being produced? Me? You? Law? or Trump alone?

Can't he be forced to make his taxes public? If not, then I'd say the law (or law enforcement) is the problem. I'm sure he has things to hide and if the law allows it, he will hide them.

The democrats actually proposed an amendment to a bill that would have released Trump's tax returns. It was voted down by republicans. This seems to be doubly important, as Trump still hasn't placed his business assets in a blind trust or done anything to separate himself from his business, but apparently Republicans only care about transparency when it can be used as a cudgel against the Obama administration.

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Xavderion wrote:

Trump releasing his tax returns would mean that the media would cherry pick bad looking (not even actually bad, just bad looking) parts of it and spin stories around it for the next 8 years.

You do realize that every major party nominee since Gerald Ford has released their tax returns, right? This is in no small part because the public deserves to know about these things, and so that a president can't, say, have it held over their head in the future. It's called basic fucking accountability, and I'm astonished how unwilling people are to hold Trump accountable at even a basic level.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Here's how I like to look at a leader of a democracy.

I'm all for direct democracy, as much as possible. There shouldnt be a "leader" leading in some direction with a hard fist, but a representative officially doing the bidding of the people. People should have a say through referendums in as much decisions as possible. Even in our parliamentary democracies you give some party or parties a free reign for 4 years and can't really dislodge them.

I can picture Trump as a dictator, as well as Hillary and Sanders too.

* Under dictator Trump USA would be run like China (state controlled turbocapitalism)
* Under dictator Hillary USA would be run like Saudi Arabia (monarchy with lots of bling for the ruling family)
* Under dictator Bernie US would end up like Cuba :D (lots of fun for everyone for a short period until the free moniez end)

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morbo wrote:

* Under dictator Bernie US would end up like Cuba :D (lots of fun for everyone for a short period until the free moniez end)

It doesn't end, because it no longer flows to the top 0.1%.

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Budget_player_cadet wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

Trump releasing his tax returns would mean that the media would cherry pick bad looking (not even actually bad, just bad looking) parts of it and spin stories around it for the next 8 years.

You do realize that every major party nominee since Gerald Ford has released their tax returns, right? This is in no small part because the public deserves to know about these things, and so that a president can't, say, have it held over their head in the future. It's called basic fucking accountability, and I'm astonished how unwilling people are to hold Trump accountable at even a basic level.

Trump is different from other presidents. Now I don't know about every single one but most presidents are politicians or lawyers or whatever. Trump is a global businessman.

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Xavderion wrote:

Trump is a global crook.

FTFY.

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Budget_player_cadet wrote:

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Yes, only legality matters. We have all different morals & ethical opinions, so only what's written on the paper and is equal for all of us, can be used as a basis.

Well okay then. So someone who made his fortune by (legally) finding gullible investors, making a failed business, and paying himself massive (but legal) dividends for the use of his name before the whole thing went tits-up and he moved on to find another business, is a good businessman because he made money and didn't break the law? I'm not even talking about Trump, I just mean in general, someone who provides nothing of value but the ability to convince people to give him money for his name is a good businessman?

You seem to be confusing business with charity. If you start a business your only interest is profit. This is the same for self-employed freelancers and for super mega rich tycoons like Trump. You can be a scumbag in business, in fact most of them are, as long as you do it legally. You really can't blame Trump. If you want someone to blame, you have to blame your legal & political system and try to change that.

Ofc. you can try to achive greatness and be an ethical businessman, but if you don't have the profits you wont get far.

What about all the small bussiness owners, do you also blame them for "paying dividends to themselves" or for "finding gullible investors"? Or it's just the big whales like Trump that you don't like? Do you hate the governements that are squandering our taxpayer money? Gullible investors into private business at least give money on their own will, instead of being forced to support failed governemntal projects.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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Xavderion wrote:

Trump is a global crook.

FTFY.

Depending on how far on the left you are, all businessmen are crooks.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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morbo wrote:

* Under dictator Bernie US would end up like Cuba :D (lots of fun for everyone for a short period until the free moniez end)

It doesn't end, because it no longer flows to the top 0.1%.

The top 0.1% is not a problem, as long as the state can collect taxes from them. USA has a problem with big tax evaders, like Apple (lets rise dem iPhones, boyz :), that use legal loopholes or political favours to avoid paying what they owe.

Trump, at least in 2005, has definitely paid his fair share.