Donald Trump and US politics

"
Vhlad wrote:
"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:
But does it hold up to even moderate scrutiny?


The third link had detailed scrutiny from a Harvard Ph.D. in economics and a billionaire equity investor who served under Bill Clinton https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/Trump_Economic_Plan.pdf


Ah yes, Peter Navarro. AKA just about the only economist in Trump's camp, and an advisor to the campaign. I think the Washington Post put it nicely with their headline, "Trump economic plan is the best and everybody should love it, Trump adviser says." The fact that Trump could find someone to support his claims is not surprising; he could do the same if he claimed that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

Now here's a question - does Navarro's analysis hold up to scrutiny? It looks to me an awful lot like your typical Paul Ryan "magic asterisk" plan, wherein absurdly large increases in overall productivity (increases which outpace even the capacity of the country at the moment) are claimed to make up for the massive tax cuts. It directly contradicts the analysis by both Moody's and the Tax Policy Foundation, both of which are considerably more credentialed than Navarro. The Peterson Institute for International Economics has a pretty decent critique here, as does Steven Wallis here - although to be fair, Wallis does not have a Ph.D in economics. Matthew Yglesias calls the core of this paper "a very silly mistake". Menzie Chinn, a professor of public affairs and economics at University of Wisconsin Madison, also has a fairly scathing critique of it. One gets the impression Navarro's analysis is something of an outlier. And kind of nonsense.

"
With respect to the "experts" who analyzed Clinton's plan (Moody's), they've already been proven wrong. Moody predicted the stock market would plummet with Trump. It did the opposite.

Moody's also predicted a downturn longer than the great recession, 7% unemployment, and a housing price collapse.

If after 4 years of Trump Moody's proves to be completely wrong, I'm sure we will still see CNN reporting their doomsday analysis for the next election cycle.


Let's be clear on what, exactly, Moody's predicted. They predicted that certain Trump policies would lead to significant economic downturn. Things like his planned tariffs on Chinese and Mexican goods. Remember those? It feels like nobody wants to bring up how he hadn't followed up on that. My guess would be because his supporters don't care that much and his opponents are just glad we dodged a bullet on that one, because holy shit what a stupid fucking idea. But it's hardly fair to say that a prediction made which is contingent on certain policies being enacted failed if those policies were not enacted. Let's see about impact, say, a few months after he actually enacts the proposals. Or, you know, we can continue hoping that he doesn't.


"
Laurium wrote:
A final time: it's not about an argument for or against any individual pick based on what you consider to be reasonable. It's about the overall impression this strategy gives off to an important section of the electorate that the DNC has been losing lately.


We're talking past each other and I'm starting to think it's me. I still don't quite get what you mean by this. That the democrats obstructing Trump's horribly unqualified, extremist picks is losing them votes? I'm still rather at a loss as to how you came to that conclusion, but okay.
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Last edited by Budget_player_cadet#3296 on Mar 12, 2017, 4:00:00 PM
"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:
Ah yes, Peter Navarro. AKA just about the only economist in Trump's camp


Statement by economists concerned by Hillary Clinton's economic agenda

The outcome of this year's presidential election will influence the U.S. economy for years to come. Should Hillary Clinton win that election, her outdated policy prescriptions won't return our economy to the faster growth rates it once enjoyed. And without more economic growth, her agenda won't result in more jobs or a higher national standard of living. Hillary Clinton's economic agenda is wrong for America.

The U.S. economy is underperforming. Misguided federal policies have produced one of the slowest recoveries on record. Since early 2009, the economy has grown at an average annual rate of 2 percent. It could and should be growing 3 to 4 percent.

Hillary Clinton promises to repeat almost all of Obama's policy mistakes. She wants yet another massive debt-financed public works program; she wants to raise tax rates on investment and incomes to nearly 50 percent; she wants to raise the federal minimum wage to at least $12 an hour and supports state and local efforts to hike theirs; she wants to stall America's development of fossil fuels; she wants to continue the Obama administration's regulatory assault on business and entrepreneurship; and she wants to double down on ObamaCare.

What America needs, and what Americans deserve, is an agenda of economic freedom: limited but effective government, policies that rely on and strengthen markets, pro-growth tax reform, sensible federal spending restraint, regulatory relief, sound money, and freedom to trade. These things are necessary if we are to revive American prosperity.

For these reasons and more, the undersigned urge everyone concerned about threats to American prosperity to reject Hillary Clinton's ill-advised economic agenda.

Signed (affiliations listed for identification purposes only),

Burton A. Abrams, University of Delaware
Zoltan Acs, George Mason University
Douglas Adie, Ohio University
Lee C. Adkins, Oklahoma State University
Richard Agnello, University of Delaware
William Albrecht, University of Iowa
Gordon Alexander, University of Minnesota
John W. Allen, Texas A&M University
William Allen, University of California, Los Angeles
Dom Armentano, University of Hartford
Nathan Ashby, University of Texas at El Paso
Howard Baetjer, Towson University Department of Economics
Charles Baird, California State University, East Bay
Marjorie Baldwin, Arizona State University
Ray Ball, University of Chicago
Christopher C. Barnekov, Ph.D., Fort Wayne, Indiana
Bill Barnett, Loyola University New Orleans
James Barth, Auburn University
Robert Battalio, University of Notre Dame
Stacie Beck, University of Delaware
Daniel K. Benjamin, Clemson University
James T. Bennett, George Mason University
Michael Bennett, Curry College
Bill Beranek, University of Georgia
Dianne Betts, Raymond James & Associates
Sanjai Bhagat, University of Colorado
Michael Bond, University of Arizona
Michael J. Boskin, Stanford University
Samuel Bostaph, University of Dallas
Fred Bounds, Georgia State University
John Boyd, University of Minnesota
Michael Bradley, Duke University
Charles Breeden, Marquette University
Wayne Brough, FreedomWorks
Lawrence Brunner, Central Michigan University
Phillip Bryson, Brigham Young University
Van Bullock, New Mexico State University
Richard Burkhauser, Cornell University
David Burnett, Whitworth University and Gonzaga University
Edwin T. Burton, University of Virginia
William Butos, Trinity College
Charles Calomiris, Columbia University
Oral Capps Jr., Texas A&M University
Tom Cargill, University of Nevada
Carmen Carro, AEA Member
James Carter, former Chief Economist, U.S. Senate Budget Committee
Ava Gail Cas, The Catholic University of America
Richard J. Cebula, Jacksonville University
Dustin Chambers, Salisbury University
Don Chance, Louisiana State University
Semoon Chang, Gulf Coast Center for Impact Studies
K. C. Chen, California State University, Fresno
Gregory C. Chow, Princeton University
Susan Christoffersen, Philadelphia University
Lawrence Cima, John Carroll University
Lloyd Cohen, George Mason University Scalia Law School
John Coleman, Duke University
Ben Collier, Northwest Missouri State University
Boyd Collier, Tarleton State University
Robert Collinge, University of Texas at San Antonio
Michael Cosgrove, University of Dallas
T. Norman Van Cott, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana
James Cover, University of Alabama
Eleanor Craig, University of Delaware
W. Mark Crain, Lafayette College
Nicole Crain, Lafayette College
John R. Crooker, University of Central Missouri
K. Cundiff, Park University
Ward Curran, Trinity College
Carl Dahlman, US Department of Defense and RAND Corporation, retired
Michael Daniels, Columbus State University
Larry Dann, University of Oregon
Lawrence S. Davidson, Indiana University
Joseph DeSalvo, University of South Florida, Tampa
Allan DeSerpa, Arizona State University
Bob DeYoung, University of Kansas School of Business
Gregg Dimkoff , Grand Valley State University
Floyd H. Duncan, Virginia Military Institute
James Dunlevy, Miami University
Gerald Dwyer, Dwyer Economics
John Eckalbar, California State University, Chico
John Egger, Towson University
Jeffrey Eisenach, George Mason University Scalia Law School
Richard Ericson, East Carolina University
Molly Espey, Clemson University
Mel Evans, Hopkinsville Community College
Dorla Evans, University of Alabama, Huntsville
Eugene Fama, University of Chicago
W. Ken Farr, Georgia College and State University
Michael Faulkender, University of Maryland
Susan Feigenbaum, University of Missouri, St. Louis
Garry Fleming, Roanoke College
Christopher Flinn, New York University
Harold Flint, Montclair State University, retired
Ralph Frasca, University of Dayton
Gary French, Nathan Associates Inc.
Diana Furchtgott-Roth, Manhattan Institute for Policy Research
Dave Garthoff, The University of Akron
Robert Genetski, Classicalprinciples.com
Moheb Ghali, Western Washington University
Joseph Giacalone, St. John’s University
Adam Gifford Jr., California State University
David Gillette, Truman State University
Otis W. Gilley, Louisiana Tech University
William Glade, University of Texas at Austin
Rodolfo A. Gonzalez, San Jose State University
Lawrence Goodman, Bergen County, NJ
Daniel Graham, Duke University
J. Edward Graham, University of North Carolina, Wilmington
Phil Gramm, former U.S. Senator, Texas
Wendy Gramm, Mercatus Center, retired
Richard Grant, Lipscomb University
Anthony Greco, University of Louisiana, Lafayette
Kenneth Greene, Binghamton University
Thomas Gresik, University of Notre Dame
Earl Grinols, Baylor University
Noreen Haas-Lephardt, Marquette University
R. W. Hafer, Southern Illinois University Edwardsville
Simon Hakim, Temple University
Thomas Hall, Miami University
Gerald A. Hanweck, George Mason University
Stephen Happel, Arizona State University
Scott Harrington, University of Pennsylvania
Lydia Harris, Goucher College
William R. Hart, Miami University
Joseph Haslag, University of Missouri
John Haslem, University of Maryland
Janice A. Hauge, University of North Texas
Arthur Havenner, University of California, Davis
Daniel Heath, Georgetown University Law Center
Scott Hein, Texas Tech University
John Helmuth, University of Michigan, Flint
James Henderson, Baylor University
Jesse Hill, Tarrant County College
John Hoehn, Michigan State University
Gregory Hoelscher, Blue Stripe Investors, LLC
Arlene Holen, former Associate Director, Congressional Budget Office
Douglas Holtz-Eakin, former Director, Congressional Budget Office
Charles L. Hooper, Objective Insights, Inc.
William Hosek, California State University, Northridge
Forrest Huffman, Temple University
Ed Ireland, Texas Christian University
Thomas R. Ireland, University of Missouri at St. Louis
Austin Jaffe, Pennsylvania State University
Mark Jamison, University of Florida
Shane Johnson, Texas A&M University
Dennis Johnson, University of South Dakota
Richard Just, University of Maryland
Alexander Katkov, Johnson & Wales University
Michael S. Kaylen, University of Missouri
Barry Keating, University of Notre Dame
David Kendall, University of Virginia
Richard Kilmer, University of Florida
Charles Knoeber, North Carolina State University
Don Koch, former Senior Vice President, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta
Larry Kudlow
Arthur B. Laffer, Laffer Associates
William Laird, Florida State University
Deepak Lal, UCLA
Nicholas Lash, Loyola University Chicago
Don Leet, California State University, Fresno
Norman Lefton, Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville
Kenneth Lehn, University of Pittsburgh
Jim Leiby, University of Maine
David Leonard, Miami University of Ohio
Stan Liebowitz, University of Texas, Dallas
Dean R. Lillard, Ohio State University
Christopher Lingle, Ph.D. in economics, University of Georgia
Jody Lipford, Presbyterian College
Luis Locay, University of Miami
Dennis E. Logue, Tuck School at Dartmouth College
John R. Lott Jr., Crime Prevention Research Center
Timothy Loughran, University of Notre Dame
Donald L. Luskin, TrendMacro
R. Ashley Lyman, University of Idaho
Billy Lynn, St. Ambrose University, Davenport, IA
Glenn MacDonald, Washington University in St. Louis
Maurice MacDonald, Kansas State University
Keith Malone, University of North Alabama
David Malpass, Encima Global
Yuri Maltsev, Carthage College
Michael L. Marlow, Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo
Noralyn Marshall, Risk Management Advisors
Paul Mason, McMurry University
Timothy Mathews, Kennesaw State University
John Matsusaka, University of Southern California
Thomas Mayor, University of Houston
John McArthur, Wofford College
W. Douglas McMillin, Louisiana State University
William L. Megginson, University of Oklahoma
Roger Meiners, University of Texas at Arlington
John Merrifield, University of Texas, San Antonio
Steven C. Michael, University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign
J. Edgar Mihelic, Community Support Services
James Miller III, former Director, Office of Management and Budget
James D. Miller, Smith College
Chandra Mishra, Florida Atlantic University
Ron Moomaw, Oklahoma State University
Steve Moore, FreedomWorks
John C. Moorhouse, Wake Forest University
Barry Morris, University of North Alabama
Frank Murray, University of Minnesota
Robert J. Newman, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge
Lilian Ng, Schulich School of Business, York University
Robert D. Niehaus, Robert D. Niehaus, Inc.
Edd Noell, Westmont College
David J. Nye, University of Florida
Jim O'Neill, University of Delaware
June O'Neill, former Director, Congressional Budget Office
Lydia Ortega, San Jose State University
Dale Osborne, University of Texas
Donald Oswald, California State University, Bakersfield
Walton Padelford, Union University
Richard Palfin, Economic Analysis
Charles Parekh, Duff & Phelps
Stephen Parente, University of Minnesota
Randall Parker, East Carolina University
Douglas Patterson, Virginia Tech
Judd Patton, Bellevue University
G. Michael Phillips, California State University, Northridge
Ivan Pongracic, Hillsdale College
Arturo Porzecanski, American University
Barry Poulson, University of Colorado Boulder
James Prieger, Pepperdine University
R. L. Promboin, University of Maryland University College
Gary Quinlivan, Saint Vincent College
Richard W. Rahn, Institute for Global Economic Growth
David Ranson, H. C. Wainwright & Co. Economics Inc.
Eric Rasmusen, Indiana University
James Refalo, California State University, Los Angeles
Jon Reisman, University of Maine at Machias
Mark William Rider, Georgia State University
Christine Ries, Georgia Institute of Technology
Mario Rizzo, New York University
Nancy Roberts, Arizona State University
M. Christopher Roebuck, RxEconomics LLC
Philip Romero, University of Oregon
Steven S. Rosefielde, UNC, Chapel Hill
Larry Ross, University of Alaska Anchorage
Timothy Roth, University of Texas at El Paso
Jack Rowe, University of South Florida
Paul Rubin, Emory University
Roy J. Ruffin, University of Houston
Tony Rufolo, Portland State University
John Ruggiero, University of Dayton
Philip Jay Rushing, University of Illinois
Don Sabbarese, Kennesaw State University
Joseph Salerno, Pace University
Anthony Sanders, George Mason University
Jonathan Sandy, University of San Diego
Robert Sauer, University of Bristol
Thomas Saving, Texas A&M University
Paul Schultz, University of Notre Dame
John Seater, North Carolina State University
Barry Seldon, Florida State University
Sherrill Shaffer, University of Wyoming
Dennis Sheehan, Penn State University, Smeal College of Business
Judy Shelton, Atlas Economic Research Foundation
Ann Sherman, DePaul University
Stephen Shmanske, California State University, East Bay
Don Siegel, University at Albany, SUNY
Evangelos Otto Simos, University of New Hampshire
Timothy F. Slaper, Indiana Business Research Center
Richard L. Smith, University of California, Riverside
Ted Snyder, Yale School of Management
Donald Snyder, Utah State University
Lawrence Southwick, University at Buffalo
Frank Spreng, McKendree University
Brad Stamm, Cornerstone University
Robert Stauffer, Roanoke College
Thomas Stoker, MIT
Bernell Stone, Brigham Young University
Joe Stone, University of Oregon
Michael Sullivan, University of Nevada, Las Vegas
Richard Sweeney, Georgetown University
Robert Tamura, Clemson University
T. Craig Tapley, University of Florida
Jason Taylor, Central Michigan University
Timothy Terrell, Wofford College
Rebecca Thacker, Ohio University
Clifford Thies, Shenandoah University
Henry Thompson, Auburn University
David G. Tuerck, Suffolk University
David Tufte, Southern Utah University
Carl J. Ullrich, James Madison University
Richard Vedder, Ohio University
Hrishikesh Vinod, Fordham University
Donald Walker, Indiana University of PA
Sherri Wall, University of Alaska Fairbanks
Alan Rufus Waters, California State University, Fresno
Andrew Weintraub, Temple University
Robert Whaples, Wake Forest University
J. Gregg Whittaker, William Jewell College
Elliott Willman, New Mexico State University
Lonny Wilson, William Penn University
Michael Wohlgenant, North Carolina State University
Arthur Woolf, University of Vermont
Gene Wunder, Washburn University
Sheng Xiao, Westminster College
Bill Yang, Georgia Southern University
Nancy Bord Yonge, Heritage Foundation, Hoover Institution and MicroCapital Institute
Frank Zahn, University of Nebraska at Omaha
Mokhlis Y. Zaki, Northern Michigan University, retired
John Zdanowicz, Florida International University
Jerry Zimmerman, Univeristy of Rochester
Joseph Zoric, Franciscan University of Steubenville
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"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:

"
Laurium wrote:
A final time: it's not about an argument for or against any individual pick based on what you consider to be reasonable. It's about the overall impression this strategy gives off to an important section of the electorate that the DNC has been losing lately.


We're talking past each other and I'm starting to think it's me. I still don't quite get what you mean by this. That the democrats obstructing Trump's horribly unqualified, extremist picks is losing them votes? I'm still rather at a loss as to how you came to that conclusion, but okay.


Lol, of course we're talking past each other. There's about 200 pages of that in this thread.

But alright, let me try to rewind a little bit just on the offhand chance we can reconcile this nonsense. Again, it's not to say what I think is absolutely correct or incorrect.

The problem isn't about a singular instance of obstruction against the cabinet lot. If, as you say, Devos is absolutely unacceptable then I would expect a party to throw a fit and stand their ground to say no, no way, this can't happen.

I think most people would be fine with that. In a singular instance or two.

The problem is they didn't stand their ground against one candidate. Or Two. They threw a fit for nearly every position pick. Nearly every EO. Every tweet there's a fit. Nationwide protests against him. Supreme Court is another fit. His daughter's clothing line incurs a fit. A person sitting on a couch incurs a fit ffs. Talks of impeachment find their way into national televised debate. Parsing of words during confirmation hearings. People no longer allowed to speak on Universities to the point of violence. On and on and on.

To the middle of the road American the DNC needs to actually win elections of consequence (which they haven't done in many years), this is a poor strategy IMO to go all in, all the time. At the end of the day, even if all his picks are as deplorable as you claim, most people inherently give an incoming administration wide latitude in choosing the team.

To the middle of the road American that maybe tunes in to politics for a 30 min nightly show a few days a week, this constant bitching by the other side is not a good look. It's been 50 days. Not 2 years. 50 days. And it started day one, hour one.

In the end, this is not what Democrats are really about IMO. Rather, it's about a poisonous progressive ideology that stands for nothing other than self-righteousness led by their grandstanding leaders (Warren, Pelosi, Sanders, etc.). Unfortunately for the DNC, said ideology has a choke hold over party leadership at the moment. It's one reason folks didn't want Pelosi to retain her position.

In responding to Deathflower, I'm saying that Democrats are not really into this "resistance" bullshit. It's the loud ass vocal minority of progressives. And they've proven nothing. They didn't prevent anything, and they have no power of real consequence for the foreseeable future. And IMO they're ruining the party.

That's it. That's the larger point, the larger risk, that extends beyond a singular instance of obstruction. It's a shit strategy.
Just curious, Laurium. Are you actually saying most or all of the cabinet nominations were indeed good nominees?

Are you saying that?
Casually casual.

I haven't given an opinion on the quality of any of the cabinet picks. It's not relevant.

"
Laurium wrote:
I haven't given an opinion on the quality of any of the cabinet picks. It's not relevant.



It kinda is.

I was amazed at the cabinet picks, I totally expected the obstruction I saw. In fact, I was surprised at how many dems actually did vote for some and that for the most part it seemed republicans voted for nominees they knew were terrible for no other reason than party lines.
Casually casual.

"
Vhlad wrote:
"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:
Ah yes, Peter Navarro. AKA just about the only economist in Trump's camp


Statement by economists concerned by Hillary Clinton's economic agenda


Please note three things:

1. A lot of these people are the same people who have been wrong about pretty much everything since 2007. Folks who thought austerity was the way out of a liquidity trap, that Bernanke was "debasing the dollar", and that out-of-control inflation was right around the corner. I am not an economist, but even with my casual following of the field, I recognize some of these names.
2. This is not "economists for Trump". At no point do they endorse Trump, his policies, or his agendas.
3.

"
What America needs, and what Americans deserve, is an agenda of economic freedom: limited but effective government, policies that rely on and strengthen markets, pro-growth tax reform, sensible federal spending restraint, regulatory relief, sound money, and freedom to trade. These things are necessary if we are to revive American prosperity.


Bolding mine. Hmm. Yes, freedom to trade, that does sound a lot like Trump, specifically the plan Navarro lauded so much for its extreme trade freedom.

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"
Laurium wrote:

Lol, of course we're talking past each other. There's about 200 pages of that in this thread.

But alright, let me try to rewind a little bit just on the offhand chance we can reconcile this nonsense. Again, it's not to say what I think is absolutely correct or incorrect.

The problem isn't about a singular instance of obstruction against the cabinet lot. If, as you say, Devos is absolutely unacceptable then I would expect a party to throw a fit and stand their ground to say no, no way, this can't happen.

I think most people would be fine with that. In a singular instance or two.

The problem is they didn't stand their ground against one candidate. Or Two. They threw a fit for nearly every position pick. Nearly every EO. Every tweet there's a fit. Nationwide protests against him. Supreme Court is another fit. His daughter's clothing line incurs a fit. A person sitting on a couch incurs a fit ffs. Talks of impeachment find their way into national televised debate. Parsing of words during confirmation hearings. People no longer allowed to speak on Universities to the point of violence. On and on and on.

To the middle of the road American the DNC needs to actually win elections of consequence (which they haven't done in many years), this is a poor strategy IMO to go all in, all the time. At the end of the day, even if all his picks are as deplorable as you claim, most people inherently give an incoming administration wide latitude in choosing the team.

To the middle of the road American that maybe tunes in to politics for a 30 min nightly show a few days a week, this constant bitching by the other side is not a good look. It's been 50 days. Not 2 years. 50 days. And it started day one, hour one.


Okay, a few points here.

First off, have you turned on FOX News at any point in the last 8 years? How about talk radio? "Constant bitching by the other side" is a fairly apt description. Republicans have spent the last 8 years capitalizing on or manufacturing one "scandal" after another. And it worked. It didn't convince too many democrats, but it didn't have to. For the base, it rallied the troops and made them more likely to be more active; for the moderates, it either led to thoughts like "where there's smoke, there's fire" or thoughts like "What a shitshow, time to tune out". Constant, non-stop outrage was what won Republicans the house of representatives in 2010 and the Senate in 2014. You may personally find the tone shrill, but if you want to tell me that it's "not a good look", then I need something more than just your say-so.

Secondly, that aforementioned strategy worked even though most of the hay being made was bullshit. Remember how much was made about "Death Panels"? Yeah, it was a lie, but it was an effective lie. Remember "you have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"? It was taken out of context. Pelosi didn't mean what republicans said she meant, but even now, years later, Republicans are using it as a rhetorical cudgel - there's a reason the republican healthcare plan's website is called "readthebill.com". By contrast, the complaints about Trump are overwhelmingly things that are worth getting pissed about. You think it's odd that we protest almost every cabinet nominee, but almost every cabinet nominee is on the level of Michael D. Brown*, if not worse. I'm not sure why using the same strategy as the republicans, except also not being lying shitbags about it, would be a losing move.

Thirdly, this is not a normal administration. Trump lost the popular vote by a staggering amount after an incredibly contentious campaign, and remains one of the most unpopular presidents ever immediately after taking office. This is not simply business as usual, for a number of reasons, and acting like it is ignores the reality on the ground. People are pissed, and every day, Trump adds new fuel to the fire.

This kind of rage is what led to the Tea Party essentially taking over Washington. Why should we moderate ourselves, police our tones, and act like the adults in the room? Why not take advantage of this anger, and keep on reminding people of just how fucking awful this administration is? "They go low, we go high" is a lovely sentiment, and it's one Obama and his colleagues in the DNC have followed to an admirable degree. It also keeps losing. It lost to Donald "Grab 'em by the pussy" Trump.

You say this will keep the democrats from winning. I have to ask: why do you think that? You haven't justified it at all.



*He was head of FEMA during Hurricane Katrina. I think we remember how that ended.

"
In the end, this is not what Democrats are really about IMO. Rather, it's about a poisonous progressive ideology that stands for nothing other than self-righteousness led by their grandstanding leaders (Warren, Pelosi, Sanders, etc.). Unfortunately for the DNC, said ideology has a choke hold over party leadership at the moment. It's one reason folks didn't want Pelosi to retain her position.

In responding to Deathflower, I'm saying that Democrats are not really into this "resistance" bullshit. It's the loud ass vocal minority of progressives. And they've proven nothing. They didn't prevent anything, and they have no power of real consequence for the foreseeable future. And IMO they're ruining the party.

That's it. That's the larger point, the larger risk, that extends beyond a singular instance of obstruction. It's a shit strategy.


"Nothing other than self-righteousness"? Wat. I'm sorry, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about when it comes to Sanders or Warren. I don't think you have any real understanding of the relationship between people like Sanders and Warren and the DNC (did we already forget that the DNC screwed Sanders over?). I know a lot of dems who are pissed that the DNC went with the more moderate, neoconservative wing of the party, represented by Clinton. This whole issue just seems so bizarrely out of right field. I think you're projecting your own, personal beliefs about various issues onto democrats as a whole. But democrats as a whole don't think like you. There are a lot of people who are very serious about this "resistance bullshit". Because they care about things like science and the environment and people's rights and police abuse and their country not going to shit. I'm just not sure who you purport to be speaking for, or on what basis.

I really don't even know what the bit about "self-righteousness" is supposed to mean. When Sanders stands up for a $15 minimum wage because he thinks it would help people in low-wage jobs as well as help the economy, is that just self-righteousness? I am really confused as to what self-righteousness is even supposed to mean in that context.
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"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:

Why should we moderate ourselves, police our tones, and act like the adults in the room? Why not take advantage of this anger, and keep on reminding people of just how fucking awful this administration is?


Because there's no power. There's no leverage. What do you think the DNC will be taking advantage of? How? By reminding people how awful things are you're making a BIG fundamental assumption that people agree with you, that things are worse every single day. Friday certainly didn't count, what with those 200k jobs. That stock market's rising. Working people probably not pissed about that. You're banking everything on huge assumption and in so doing taking a risk, all the while the DNC has no power.

"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:

You say this will keep the democrats from winning. I have to ask: why do you think that? You haven't justified it at all.


They've not won in many years. Why should anything be different tomorrow when we double down on losing strategies?

The DNC lost 85% of counties in the last election! Democratic change since 2010: -35% governors, -20% house/legislature, and -10% senate. Lowest representation since 1920s.

Do numbers mean something differently where you're from, Germany is it? What position of strength are you arguing from?


"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:


But democrats as a whole don't think like you. There are a lot of people who are very serious about this "resistance bullshit". Because they care about things like science and the environment and people's rights and police abuse and their country not going to shit. I'm just not sure who you purport to be speaking for, or on what basis.



You'd better be absolutely stone cold positive about that, because we're fixing to lose more Senate seats in 2 years. You know democrats that think the way you do. We're 300 million people here bro, there's plenty of alternate thought to go around. I'm sure liberals in Germany are very left of rural Democrats here. It's probably very true we're listening to two different camps (I seem to remember you said you were from Germany. Might be confusing that with someone else. Nevertheless, plenty of thought among hundreds of millions).

The difference is in what's been occurring the last 6 years.

Again, you could be right. No doubt. But you better be damned sure that Warren, Pelosi, and Sanders can lead the DNC in the next few years against all evidence of the prior 6.

Otherwise, the "resistance" is a big piss-ant paper tiger that does nothing but line up grandstanding Warren's political coffers.

Anyway, we're just going to have to again agree to disagree on the pathway forward for the party. It is what it is.
Last edited by Laurium#0077 on Mar 12, 2017, 6:03:11 PM
"
Laurium wrote:
"
Budget_player_cadet wrote:
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Laurium wrote:
A final time: it's not about an argument for or against any individual pick based on what you consider to be reasonable. It's about the overall impression this strategy gives off to an important section of the electorate that the DNC has been losing lately.
We're talking past each other and I'm starting to think it's me. I still don't quite get what you mean by this. That the democrats obstructing Trump's horribly unqualified, extremist picks is losing them votes? I'm still rather at a loss as to how you came to that conclusion, but okay.
Lol, of course we're talking past each other. There's about 200 pages of that in this thread.

But alright, let me try to rewind a little bit just on the offhand chance we can reconcile this nonsense. Again, it's not to say what I think is absolutely correct or incorrect.

The problem isn't about a singular instance of obstruction against the cabinet lot. If, as you say, Devos is absolutely unacceptable then I would expect a party to throw a fit and stand their ground to say no, no way, this can't happen.

I think most people would be fine with that. In a singular instance or two.

The problem is they didn't stand their ground against one candidate. Or Two. They threw a fit for nearly every position pick. Nearly every EO. Every tweet there's a fit. Nationwide protests against him. Supreme Court is another fit. His daughter's clothing line incurs a fit. A person sitting on a couch incurs a fit ffs. Talks of impeachment find their way into national televised debate. Parsing of words during confirmation hearings. People no longer allowed to speak on Universities to the point of violence. On and on and on.

To the middle of the road American the DNC needs to actually win elections of consequence (which they haven't done in many years), this is a poor strategy IMO to go all in, all the time. At the end of the day, even if all his picks are as deplorable as you claim, most people inherently give an incoming administration wide latitude in choosing the team.

To the middle of the road American that maybe tunes in to politics for a 30 min nightly show a few days a week, this constant bitching by the other side is not a good look. It's been 50 days. Not 2 years. 50 days. And it started day one, hour one.

In the end, this is not what Democrats are really about IMO. Rather, it's about a poisonous progressive ideology that stands for nothing other than self-righteousness led by their grandstanding leaders (Warren, Pelosi, Sanders, etc.). Unfortunately for the DNC, said ideology has a choke hold over party leadership at the moment. It's one reason folks didn't want Pelosi to retain her position.

In responding to Deathflower, I'm saying that Democrats are not really into this "resistance" bullshit. It's the loud ass vocal minority of progressives. And they've proven nothing. They didn't prevent anything, and they have no power of real consequence for the foreseeable future. And IMO they're ruining the party.

That's it. That's the larger point, the larger risk, that extends beyond a singular instance of obstruction. It's a shit strategy.
Basically, elements within the Left are the boys​ who cried wolf. The townsfolk come down to see what all the fuss is over, and when they arrive they see nothing that offends them. It might offend the criers, but the townsfolk don't feel the same way; they figure most of the criers are just unbelievably thin-skinned and alarmist, and a handful may be lying. In any case, the experience of checking out this ruckus over and over and over again has conditioned the townsfolk, on a Pavlovian level, to associate the sound of liberal tears with mere trivialities.

All of this doomsaying from the likes of Olbermann and Moore, et al, the whole #Resist thing, is shooting the Dems in the foot. Normalizing the Trump presidency isn't a matter of principle, but a practical matter of tactics based on psychology; failure to accept it is strategically wrong. If the Left cannot accept that, if they keep the volume on everything turned to maximum, then not only will the Center ignore them during midterms, but if Trump does do anything truly wolfish, the Center will treat the initial cries — and the ones after those, and the ones after those — with more than a little skepticism.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.

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