How to slow down the Clear-Speed Meta

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goetzjam wrote:

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I hadn't considered adding another gear slot to remove the pressure of links when it comes to single target vs aoe.


As for changing gems to not do damage, that is 100% stupid idea and will never happen. Tell me whats the purpose of having a 6 link in that case, you get what both leech gems then?

What happens to skill gems like slower proj? It just gets dumpstered because its useless.

Gems are almost perfectly fine as is, clearspeed has to do with a formula of damage+movement (skill\speed)

Though i partially agree with what MortalKombat said, the heart of the clearspeed problem relies in the speed of the game: attack speed and movement speed of monsters and players; the insane density of the monsters in maps. These are the two biggest problems: if you resolve these two problems, you can THEN focus on balancing damage and life of player's and monsters.

I don't think PoE has always been a single spam skill tho. I remember some years ago the game was more tactical: melee couldn't tank everything, so they needed to use things like Decoy Totem for some bosses; players needed to use one skill for single target and one skill for packs (like it should be), while now everyone uses the aoe skill even to shot unique monsters... and the sad thing is that they can even do it agains izaro and atziri, where (in theory) the abuse of AoE is punished with less key or reflect

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Serge91 wrote:

, while now everyone uses the aoe skill even to shot unique monsters... and the sad thing is that they can even do it agains izaro and atziri, where (in theory) the abuse of AoE is punished with less key or reflect

It's because player's damage is now overpowering compared to monster's HP. Monster damage is completely OK, but their tiny HP pools mean players will oneshot monsters EVEN if most of their passives invested into HP pool.
With certain skills and investments there, players can oneshot even bosses!
And when you oneshot everything, anyway, how can you improve your character? Either increase your defence or clearspeeed! Increasing defence is OK, but it is "capped" by many factors - gear (cant roll more life), passives (all but build-defining already invested into HP). So, players naturally invest into clearspeed, up to sick levels!
That's why i claim - monster HP is way TOO LOW now! Players spend most of their time collecting loot from pack A and moving pack B, while actual pack/boss killing time is very short.
Increase mob HP by a LOT, reduce pack density and increase HP of tougher mobs even more - and you'll see a healthy meta. Even though player will be still alllowed to stack insane move and attack speed and litter whole screen with AoE, it will hardly matter as much if their DPS isnt "oneshotting" anymore.

Something I'd like to see is a system of interuption, but not just from stuns.

If you suffer incoming damage, your casting / arrow shooting / projectile shooting time gets extended ( interupted would be too harsh ), or your damage gets lowered.
That would slow down part of the game already.
If you jump into a pack of fast mobs, chances are they will chain hit you and that will put you in danger, which should be the cast.
If you get corrupted blood stacks, that should slow you down until you realize and cure it, or die. If you get reflected damage, same.
Now that leaves the CoC discharge problem, but this is apprently getting reworked in the next expansion.
Then there would need to be a balance for traps and mines .... not sure about how to deal with that.

Projectiles past some distance should probably have some damage reduction with it, and mobs should react to them accordingly ( hide, or rush the player ).

Also a global damage balance seems needed, anyway.

Lazier solution : quadruple all castspeed, arrow shooting speed, spctral throw, mine and trap laying speed.

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goetzjam wrote:

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Rakiii wrote:

But if you change gems to be without (or with minimal) extra damage modes it will change much.
So 4L is comperable to 6L in damage then and you can swap skills in whatever way you like.
Singl target and AoE target without swapping supporting gems itself.

It's much easier (and better) just implement a 1-2 new item slots (pants, cloak, etc), with 6-link in each.

Because you know, i play characters with 2-handers for quite some time, and i really like the versatility of second 6-link. Now think about every character gets 2 or even 3 possible 6-links! That will be amazing for the game!
Especially considering that the more and more "ultility" skills are added, and 3 4-links are often not enough.

I hadn't considered adding another gear slot to remove the pressure of links when it comes to single target vs aoe.


As for changing gems to not do damage, that is 100% stupid idea and will never happen. Tell me whats the purpose of having a 6 link in that case, you get what both leech gems then?

What happens to skill gems like slower proj? It just gets dumpstered because its useless.

Gems are almost perfectly fine as is, clearspeed has to do with a formula of damage+movement (skill\speed)

There are many usefull gems (or with potential) leech, knockback, stun, extra projectiles, conversions, pierce etc.

But why bother taking some of them instead of extra damage ones?.
Pierce gem used to be without extra damage mod, it was completelly fair but has changed ... hm.
All gem setups are very similar 5x same damage gem + maybe leech.

Btw 6L should be more about perfection (why bother having 1% extra damage? ... bcos of perfection)
High amount of people using tabula these days though ....

How to balance damage and extra speed? Add diminishing returns to them so people will create
more balanced chars (90% of all hc chars?)
The only problem is how to implement it to PoE.

Fruz - I can´t imagine how it might work. It would be punisment for melee chars. Stun works in similar way though.
Diablo2 has some great mechanics they should inspire there (hit recovery, block rate/dodge with animation ..) - there is possible to get char into "dodgelock" (while dodging can´t do anything etc)

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Rakiii wrote:

Fruz - I can´t imagine how it might work. It would be punisment for melee chars. Stun works in similar way though.
Diablo2 has some great mechanics they should inspire there (hit recovery, block rate/dodge with animation ..) - there is possible to get char into "dodgelock" (while dodging can´t do anything etc)

Melee casters you mean ? Like what ? They all have a sh*t ton of range anyway.
I mentioned projectile shooting because Spec Throw is mele but not melee.
The point is that casting or shooting an arrow should require more concentration and preparation than swinging a sword.
And that this focus can be retarded, stun interruption barely does this.


Range should have a price, currently it barely does.

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Fruz wrote:

Range should have a price, currently it barely does.

Same goes to CoC, BladeFall mine, Blade Vortex, etc. They are absurdly OP and have no price/downside at all.

Why not make movement speed cap or high diminishing return for movement speed and ms skills, while buff base movement speed to make it less important and more balanced.

I have suggested that damage should be scaled according to AOE/range (big range = less damage). We should also consider other properties of the skills such as
- chill, freeze effect
- burn / shock (other damage source)
- stun
- not reflected dmg etc.

More AoE/range/other bonuses = significantly less damage
We can talk about "significantly" but smth should change.


After this we should look at monster´s ehp vs damage output and adjust it.
So monsters will have more time to react to attacker.

@Rakiii

I dont think you understand the purpose of investing into links 1 bit at all or the goal of links in PoE in general. Then again I don't think it really matters because GGG would never basically completely ruin the linking system by making support gems worst and by removing the need to invest into links.

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goetzjam wrote:

@Rakiii

I dont think you understand the purpose of investing into links 1 bit at all or the goal of links in PoE in general. Then again I don't think it really matters because GGG would never basically completely ruin the linking system by making support gems worst and by removing the need to invest into links.

I may agree on that, changing WHOLE link system (so supports wont add DPS, but rather ultility) is too complex.
However, link system has a perfect "side effect" for "too much" support gems - mana multipler. In current game state, it's usually ignored, because (attack) skill costs were made too low. But i believe, with some tweaking, mana multiplier could became a good tool for balancing support gems and active skills (i.e. powerful supports and skills will cost so much mana, that you'll have to invest somewhat into it to compensate).

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goetzjam wrote:

@Rakiii

I dont think you understand the purpose of investing into links 1 bit at all or the goal of links in PoE in general. Then again I don't think it really matters because GGG would never basically completely ruin the linking system by making support gems worst and by removing the need to invest into links.

Never say never ...

from Q@A: (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1696913)

There has been some discussion on the subreddit recently about the range of effects support gems have, and the limitation of choice when it comes to them. Some argue that in its current state, choosing support gems is primarily a min-maxing of damage multipliers to eke out the most dps. They would prefer little or no damage multipliers on support gems, in favor of only unique effects one had to choose between. what are your thoughts on this, and are you against this large of an overhaul to a core game mechanic?

While this is a noble goal, it would only work if there were enough support gems that affected the skills in interesting, non-damage ways. We have a lot already for some skill types, but less so for others. In addition, a popular way of designing support gems is to penalise the skill in some way but provide a damage boost. Then character who can ignore that penalty can use the support gem as a free damage boost.

The issue you raise about such a large overhaul is a big issue. While we're not scared of changing major systems, every single character in the game would be affected by something as large as this, so we'd absolutely have to know that it's more fun.