How to slow down the Clear-Speed Meta

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stalkingjackal wrote:

On the other hand, movement speed itself could be nerfed to hell like they did with item quantity.

Or, mob density can be reduced and HP (+reward) for remaining mobs increased (especially - HP of champions and bosses). It's so simple solution, and the only one, that will stop "clearspeed meta".

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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stalkingjackal wrote:

On the other hand, movement speed itself could be nerfed to hell like they did with item quantity.

Or, mob density can be reduced and HP (+reward) for remaining mobs increased (especially - HP of champions and bosses). It's so simple solution, and the only one, that will stop "clearspeed meta".

Increasing the HP of mobs don't really have the intended affect in almost all circumstances.


Mob density plays a large part in ARPG games and in this game it has a huge implication on map drops, item drops, currency drops, ect. It affects leveling speeds, basically all aspects of the game revolve around how many monsters there are.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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stalkingjackal wrote:

On the other hand, movement speed itself could be nerfed to hell like they did with item quantity.

Or, mob density can be reduced and HP (+reward) for remaining mobs increased (especially - HP of champions and bosses). It's so simple solution, and the only one, that will stop "clearspeed meta".

It is not simple becasue it make player feel weaker (despite dealing the same ammount of damage per second)

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goetzjam wrote:

Increasing the HP of mobs don't really have the intended affect in almost all circumstances.

It does. High-HP bosses will favour single-target skills.

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goetzjam wrote:

Mob density plays a large part in ARPG games and in this game it has a huge implication on map drops, item drops, currency drops, ect. It affects leveling speeds, basically all aspects of the game revolve around how many monsters there are.

PoE has the highest mob density among all ARPGs.



Look at Grim Dawn.
This is the game, that implemented your "solution" to clearspeed meta. Character's movespeed is very low, movespeed bonuses on items, etc are laughable (5-12%). Maximum movespeed bonus is hardly capped (135% max).
And still, EVERY decent build tries to cap movement speed. And if a player CAN have access to movement skills (ones that allow to charge an enemy at increased speed, he will get and use them.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Increasing the HP of mobs don't really have the intended affect in almost all circumstances.

It does. High-HP bosses will favour single-target skills.

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goetzjam wrote:

Mob density plays a large part in ARPG games and in this game it has a huge implication on map drops, item drops, currency drops, ect. It affects leveling speeds, basically all aspects of the game revolve around how many monsters there are.

PoE has the highest mob density among all ARPGs.



Look at Grim Dawn.
This is the game, that implemented your "solution" to clearspeed meta. Character's movespeed is very low, movespeed bonuses on items, etc are laughable (5-12%). Maximum movespeed bonus is hardly capped (135% max).
And still, EVERY decent build tries to cap movement speed. And if a player CAN have access to movement skills (ones that allow to charge an enemy at increased speed, he will get and use them.

Grim dawn, while a great game is no where near the level of game PoE is. If you want to compare ARPG games and density, look at D3 and see the mob density there.



High HP bosses don't work as well in this game anymore because people either

A) skip the boss because it isn't rewarding or B) cheese it with some lame tactic

Yes it could make the boss fights longer to have a single target setup, but then people just put in conc, pull out melee splash or do whatever to do the boss challenge. Hell people could simply just swap characters and do the boss on a specialized character for bosses.


Don't expect any real changes to the clearspeed meta, it might be somewhat less good or more rewarding to do the new endgame content, but they specifically said they dont want to remove that playstyle option from people.

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goetzjam wrote:

High HP bosses don't work as well in this game anymore because people either

A) skip the boss because it isn't rewarding or B) cheese it with some lame tactic

Yes it could make the boss fights longer to have a single target setup, but then people just put in conc, pull out melee splash or do whatever to do the boss challenge. Hell people could simply just swap characters and do the boss on a specialized character for bosses.

This is where level design has to complement mob design and intent. Meaning lower mob density with higher hp and longer boss fights won't work in PoE not because of the things you listed but because the majority of the zones in PoE are not designed with that intent in mind.

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stalkingjackal wrote:

On the other hand, movement speed itself could be nerfed to hell like they did with item quantity.

This

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Increasing the HP of mobs don't really have the intended affect in almost all circumstances.

It does. High-HP bosses will favour single-target skills.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Mob density plays a large part in ARPG games and in this game it has a huge implication on map drops, item drops, currency drops, ect. It affects leveling speeds, basically all aspects of the game revolve around how many monsters there are.

PoE has the highest mob density among all ARPGs.



Look at Grim Dawn.
This is the game, that implemented your "solution" to clearspeed meta. Character's movespeed is very low, movespeed bonuses on items, etc are laughable (5-12%). Maximum movespeed bonus is hardly capped (135% max).
And still, EVERY decent build tries to cap movement speed. And if a player CAN have access to movement skills (ones that allow to charge an enemy at increased speed, he will get and use them.

thats why for all playthroughs i played grim dawn with cheat engine on 1.5x to 2.0x game speed, that game is annoyingly slow.

That solution made me feel bored, i played the same way titan quest and expansion too, was too slow. I dare say 50% is for slow gameplay 50% is for fast gameplay, changing these things with so little reasons would certainly affect this game.

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GeorgAnatoly wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

High HP bosses don't work as well in this game anymore because people either

A) skip the boss because it isn't rewarding or B) cheese it with some lame tactic

Yes it could make the boss fights longer to have a single target setup, but then people just put in conc, pull out melee splash or do whatever to do the boss challenge. Hell people could simply just swap characters and do the boss on a specialized character for bosses.

This is where level design has to complement mob design and intent. Meaning lower mob density with higher hp and longer boss fights won't work in PoE not because of the things you listed but because the majority of the zones in PoE are not designed with that intent in mind.

Which is a pretty radical change from the game we play now.

That isn't to say that GGG won't do it, it could likely be done with the addition of act 5, but they would need to be extra careful when making changes like this because they could upset a very large number of players if they don't get the balance correct.

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On the other hand, movement speed itself could be nerfed to hell like they did with item quantity.

So people in standard can move super fast, while people in the temp leagues are forced to run slow.


Movement speed isn't the issue, the issue is moving while doing damage or movement abilities that circumvent the whole idea of movement speed.

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goetzjam wrote:

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PoE has huge mob density and you like it, but you dont like that it causes ultra-fast meta? WTF with you, man? A huge mob density always, ALWAYS leads to AoE skills domination. A gem system, where you have just a single 6-link and every link adds 30% more damage, ALWAYS leads to one-skil spam gameplay.
If you dont understand this, i'm sorry for you.