GGG Please answer Cheap Construction Jewel vs Saboteur Passive

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mark1030 wrote:

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Zinja wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

Why? Why shouldn't the jewel exist? Maybe I want to be able to set 12 traps at a time. Why would you prevent allowing that?

if it has to come down to the time spent in casting 12 traps , you can cast the skill yourself. Like you yourself said it earlier.

even that is besides the point , You have sunblast +20% reduction = for instant activating traps.

Why should the trap jewel exist when it does the same thing as the passive?

Almost every jewel does the same thing as a passive. Every jewel that has damage, resist, attack/cast speed, stats, and just about every other mod you can think of gives you the same thing as nodes in the tree.

I don't want sunblast. I want to stack traps and run. Traps triggered by sunblast don't target an enemy if none triggered it. If I throw 3 fire traps, 3 bear traps, 3 lightning traps, and 3 misc spell traps, I want them all to be sitting on the ground waiting to be triggered as I lead monsters to them. If you want to play a trapper like a caster, where you just stand in one place and never have to wait for a cooldown, what's the point of the traps? Let me have as many traps as I can have. Your opposition to this jewel is completely illogical. You probably don't even know there is another node on the tree that gives +2 traps. Should they get rid of the node that gives +1 trap because you could get that somewhere else on the tree?

Replace 3 with 4. That is what the jewel says it does it is even worded differently I just want it to do what it says it does.
Id like to be able to throw 4 traps As simple as that.

Great , This is what i was afraid of.
You have a trap jewel and a Trap passive which do the same thing. and the only people it benefits are pure trap builds who use multiple kinds of traps.

I use traps as a utility , for example uber atziri split phase . The time it takes to lay down 3 traps is when the split phase activates.

what i had hoped this jewel would do is give me the ability to place 4 traps within that time. I had hoped this jewel would sightly compensate / give a tiny dmg boost despite not having mirrored gear.

So as a utility for Non-Trap builds this remains pointless.

Thank you for clarifying this mark. Because of the difference in wording i had expected them to behave differently .

Does Ascendancy have any thing else in store that would let people increase the number of traps thrown?

I missed that, Thanks.
But from the video it looks like you can have 3 active clusters placed at the same time.
But the traps have reduced damage... and bleed does not stack...

I guess what remains to be seen is the overall damage boost on a single target
1. with cluster support
2 . without cluster support
for the same 3 throws.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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aimlessgun wrote:

Also a couple questions: does the DoT stack

The moving and non-moving versions of the bleeding stack together. If you puncutre something multiple times, only the highest-damgae puncture is in effect at a time (just like burning)

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aimlessgun wrote:

and does an enemy that is being knocked back count as 'moving'?

Yes.

say your puncture traps do damage like so ( assuming one it crits)

1. 100
2. 500
3. 50

But with cluster trap
1 . 4~25 , 4-25 ,4-25 4-25
in the first throw
any one of those 4 traps might crit

But bleed only takes into effect the highest damage done at the moment - effectively lowering your damage done with cluster trap.
but if at throw 1 you get something like 25,60, 250,4 making your effective damage done per throw higher because each bleed effect remains and even though the damage is smaller its cumulative effect per throw is higher

If this is the case , cluster trap is definitely a good support for that single target boss too.
Assuming the boss activates all the traps in a cluster , every time .

If you're going for single target puncture, more traps is never as good as fewer traps that hit harder. You want one big hit, not several smaller hits.

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mark1030 wrote:

If you're going for single target puncture, more traps is never as good as fewer traps that hit harder. You want one big hit, not several smaller hits.

Can you please help me understand the math behind it.

LEts say you have a trap that does 100 damage if it crits with a multi of 4x its 400 damage.- for 5 seconds = 2000 total damage.

cluster trap splits it into 4 - where baseline dps 25,25,25,25 ( if not higher)
if 2 of them crit
25, 100, 100, 25

but bleed is 5 seconds for all of those 4 traps and since the highest hit is considered at any moment

wont it be 500 , 500, 500 , 500 ( for those 5 seconds)

This is assuming a cluster trap splits damage by 4.. if it reduces damage by say only 20-30 % per trap
it would make baseline as
70,70,70,70
and even if 1 of them crits
its like
240x5 , 240x5, 240x5 , 240x5
for a total of 4800 damage done.
because all of them get activated at the same time around the single target and from the wiki , only the highest damage is active on all the traps http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Puncture

Your numbers confuse me.

You only get 1 bleed at a time, so every hit that doesn't give a bleed is just a hit. If with the cluster trap your hits are 25, 100, 100, 25 = 250 damage on the hit and a 5 second bleed based on a 100 hit. Bleed is 10% of the hit, so that'd be 10 damage per second for 5 seconds = 50 extra damage from the bleed. Assuming you can throw out 2 cluster traps (to make the math easy since you've established half your hits crit), you'd have 500 damage on the hits plus 50 damage on the bleed for 550 total damage.

If instead you just use a plain trap - if you throw out 2 traps (with the 50% crit one would crit) would do 100, 400 damage and create a bleed of 40 per second for 5 seconds. That's 500 damage on the hits and 200 on the bleed for 700 total damage.

If you invest in damage over time, that bleed gets even more pronounced.

Edit: I didn't look up what cluster trap does so if there is additional damage penalties besides just dividing up the damage among the traps, the situation gets even more in favor of fewer harder hitting traps than lots of smaller hitting ones.

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mark1030 wrote:

Your numbers confuse me.

You only get 1 bleed at a time, so every hit that doesn't give a bleed is just a hit. If with the cluster trap your hits are 25, 100, 100, 25 = 250 damage on the hit and a 5 second bleed based on a 100 hit. Bleed is 10% of the hit, so that'd be 10 damage per second for 5 seconds = 50 extra damage from the bleed. Assuming you can throw out 2 cluster traps (to make the math easy since you've established half your hits crit), you'd have 500 damage on the hits plus 50 damage on the bleed for 550 total damage.

If instead you just use a plain trap - if you throw out 2 traps (with the 50% crit one would crit) would do 100, 400 damage and create a bleed of 40 per second for 5 seconds. That's 500 damage on the hits and 200 on the bleed for 700 total damage.

If you invest in damage over time, that bleed gets even more pronounced.

Edit: I didn't look up what cluster trap does so if there is additional damage penalties besides just dividing up the damage among the traps, the situation gets even more in favor of fewer harder hitting traps than lots of smaller hitting ones.

Thank you for clarifying this up.

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Zinja wrote:

LEts say you have a trap that does 100 damage if it crits with a multi of 4x its 400 damage.- for 5 seconds = 2000 total damage.

Puncture with a 400 hit will not do 2000 total damage. It's not quite that strong.

This is how puncture damage works:

1. They take the hit damage

2. They bleed for 10% of the hit for 5 seconds (for a total of 50% extra damage)

3. If at any time during the bleeding they start moving, they will take an extra 50% of the hit per second. This stacks with the other 10% for a total of 60% of the hit per second while moving. If they ever stop moving, it will go back down to 10%.


So, if Puncture hits them for 400 damage, there are two outcomes (assuming they are either not moving, or moving the whole time).

1. Never moving: 10% of 400 is 40, and they will take this for 5 seconds. 40 * 5 = 200 extra bleed damage. 400 hit + 200 bleed = 600 total damage.

2. Always moving: 60% of 400 is 240, and they will take this for 5 seconds. 240 * 5 = 1200 extra bleed damage. 400 hit + 1200 bleed = 1600 total damage.


For quick math, you can calculate the total puncture damage like this:

1. Never moving: total damage = HIT * 1.5 (50% extra damage because 10% * 5 = 50%)
400 * 1.5 = 600

2. Always moving: total damage = HIT * 4 (300% extra damage because 60% * 5 = 300%)
400 * 4 = 1600

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Zinja wrote:

cluster trap splits it into 4 - where baseline dps 25,25,25,25 ( if not higher)
if 2 of them crit
25, 100, 100, 25

but bleed is 5 seconds for all of those 4 traps and since the highest hit is considered at any moment

wont it be 500 , 500, 500 , 500 ( for those 5 seconds)

This is assuming a cluster trap splits damage by 4.. if it reduces damage by say only 20-30 % per trap
it would make baseline as
70,70,70,70
and even if 1 of them crits
its like
240x5 , 240x5, 240x5 , 240x5
for a total of 4800 damage done.
because all of them get activated at the same time around the single target and from the wiki , only the highest damage is active on all the traps http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Puncture

You seem to think that each trap will be applying the highest bleed. No, there can only be one bleed dealing damage at a time. It will not stack up from multiple hits.

If you have 3 traps that hit for 180, 160, 250, then only the bleed from the 250 hit will do damage. Total damage to a non-moving target will look like this: 180 + 160 + (250 * 1.5) = 715. Notice that only one of the three hits does any extra bleed damage.

Therefore, there are only two reasons extra traps help puncture:

1. The extra traps will still do their "hit" damage, but no bleed. Better than nothing I guess.

2. The extra traps will make your damage more consistent. If one trap doesn't crit, maybe one of the others will. Maybe two crit, but one gets a low roll: now the higher rolled crit will do the bleeding. Also traps can be evaded/blocked/dodged, since they are still considered an attack.

Overall, I still don't think cluster is a good choice. Remember that by using Cluster, you're also losing a socket that a damage support gem could go in. Knowing that, I would stick with regular traps.

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One more thing... I noticed you are using this in context of the Atziri fight, specifically the split phase. Those clones don't move, and Puncture is a poor choice for targets that don't move at all. You know what might be a better choice? A Barrage trap, and here's two reasons why.

1. Barrage does it damage instantly, so you won't have to run around dodging Atziri stuff for 5 seconds waiting for bleed damage.

2. Barrage does more damage to non-moving targets than puncture will.

Puncture does 124% base damage at level 21. If they don't move, that's 124% * 1.5 = 186% base damage over 5 seconds.

Barrage does 62% base damage at level 21. However, it fires 3 extra projectiles, so that's 62% * 4 = 248% base damage. You could even swap in the Volley Fire jewel for that part of the fight and get even more damage. Each jewel adds +2 projectiles to barrage, so even one of them will make it 62% * 6 = 372% base damage.

Either way, 248% and 372% is a lot more than puncture's 186% to non-moving targets. So maybe give Barrage trap a try?


To summarize this rather long post: bleed doesn't stack; cluster is a bad choice; try barrage trap for non-moving targets.