GGG Please answer Cheap Construction Jewel vs Saboteur Passive
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Wow , So the split phase clones attacking/casting does not count as moving. If that is the case even the vaal's dont count as moving ( for most part...)
Does any of this change when considering the 6L puncture trap setup which uses poison support gem? from reddit TLDR : Its been established- Poison , Puncture , Trap , Trap and Mine Damage , PPAD, Slower Projectiles ( point blank passive on tree) does highest damage. ( though needs mark confirmation on slower proj vs point blank when point blank passive is taken - though this seemingly should work like chin sol+ point blank gem ) Domine Non Es Dignus Last edited by Zinja on Feb 23, 2016, 12:35:50 PM
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If you want to throw more traps, get additional trap throwing speed. It won't increase the number of traps thrown per use but it will allow you to throw traps more frequently (but doesn't affect recharge rate). It's like cast speed for traps.
Last edited by rdespair on Feb 23, 2016, 1:41:17 PM
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" Yes, Vaal and Atziri don't "move" very often. "Moving" refers to moving with your legs so that your position changes on the map. Moving your arms to attack or use a skill is not counted as "moving" for this purpose. Also, teleportation skills like Lightning Warp/Blink Arrow are ways to escape without ever "moving". I'm not sure about Leap Slam or other movement skills that are not teleports; I think you still take extra bleed damage when using those. As far as poison goes, it is great with barrage since it will stack with each projectile that shoots out. Poison works okay with puncture, but only because there aren't really any other better options for that last socket. Poison would only come from the hit part of puncture, which is relatively small (124% base damage). A lot of puncture's damage comes from the bleed, which doesn't interact with poison at all. With barrage, the poison will scale from the entire 248% base damage from all four projectile hits combined. So the poison from barrage will be (248 / 124 = 2) exactly twice as strong as the poison from puncture. I'll comment on cluster trap and multi trap in more detail a bit later when I have more time. | |
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So i went and Tried the barrage Trap in the 6L setup. Vs puncture i have interesting results.
barrage trap tool tip is 20k damage. - but fires 4 arrows
puncture trap tool tip is 39k damage. - but fires 1 arrow
 Is it safe to assume since its on a trap with point blank all the 4 arrows will hit the static target?. Domine Non Es Dignus Last edited by Zinja on Feb 23, 2016, 11:36:30 PM
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" So puncture will hit for 40k, and with 3 traps that will be 120k on average. One of the traps will also do bleed damage for a total of 112.5k* extra damage over 6 seconds (20% quality puncture will last +1 second). Poison will do 155k** extra damage over 2.4 seconds (20% quality poison will last +0.4 seconds). Total is 388k for 3 puncture traps (against a target that doesn't move). A moving target would take (112.5k * 6) 675k extra bleed damage for a total of 387.5k + 675k = 1,063k damage (over a million).
*Bleed
Bleed damage is only based on the physical part of the hit, so it's not as simple as taking your tooltip * 1.5. We want to know what the average physical hit is, without the elemental damage. To do that, we need to do some manual calculations.
Find your tooltip's average damage for each damage type. Cold: (2186 + 4902) / 2 = 3544 Fire: (86 + 171) / 2 = 129 (rounded up) Lightning: (195 + 1025) / 2 = 610 Physical: (5492 + 12314) / 2 = 8903 Total: 3544 + 129 + 610 + 8903 = 13186 This is your average non-critical hit. It doesn't match your tooltip because it factors in your crit chance/multi. 2. Find the percentage that is physical. 8903 / 13186 = 67.5% 3. Use it to find how much of your tooltip is physical damage 39683 * 0.675 = 26786. This is what the bleeding damage will be based on. 4. Calculate bleed damage 10% of 26786 is 2678.6, for 6 seconds is (2678.6 * 6) = 16072 extra bleeding damage to a non-moving target. 5. Now factor in double-dipping modifiers Increases: 83% projectile + 68% physical + 10% (from quality trap/mine dmg gem) + 10% (from quality slower proj gem) + 10% (from quality phys proj attk dmg gem) = 181% To make this a multiplier, we add 1: 1.81 + 1 = x2.81 More: 1.39 (trap) * 1.39 (trap/mine dmg) * 1.29 (slower proj) = x2.492 The physical projectile attack damage gem and point blank do not double-dip since they are attack damage only. Combine them: 2.81 * 2.49 = x7.00 (double-dipping made your bleed do 7 times MORE damage) 16072 * 7 = 112,504 bleed damage (from a hit that dealt 26786 damage)
**Poison
Like bleed, poison is only based on the physical (and chaos) part of the hit, so I'll use the number we got from our bleed calculations: 26786. 1. Poison will do 10% of that per second for 2.4 seconds 26786 * 0.1 * 2.4 = 6429 damage 2. Now factor in double-dipping/poison modifiers Increases: 83% projectile + 120% poison (from gem) + 10% (from quality trap/mine dmg gem) + 10% (from quality slower proj gem) = 223% To make this a multiplier, we add 1: 2.23 + 1 = x3.23 More: 1.39 (trap) * 1.39 (trap/mine dmg) * 1.29 (slower proj) = x2.492 Combine them: 3.23 * 2.49 = x8.04 Final damage: 6429 * 8.04 = 51689 poison damage per trap Total damage: 51689 * 3 = 155067 poison damage Barrage is 20k per arrow, so 80k if they all hit. With 3 traps it should do 240k on average. Poison will do 311k** extra damage over 2.4 seconds. Total is 551k damage for 3 barrage traps.
**Poison
Poison is only based on the physical (and chaos) part of the hit. Since barrage happens to do exactly half of the hit damage of puncture, I'll use half the number we got from our bleed calculations, then times 4 for each arrow. This means all we have to do is double everything (since 0.5 * 4 = 2). So we get 26786 * 2 = 53572. 1. Poison will do 10% of that per second for 2.4 seconds 53572 * 0.1 * 2.4 = 12900 damage 2. Now factor in double-dipping/poison modifiers Increases: 83% projectile + 120% poison (from gem) + 10% (from quality trap/mine dmg gem) + 10% (from quality slower proj gem) = 223% To make this a multiplier, we add 1: 2.23 + 1 = x3.23 More: 1.39 (trap) * 1.39 (trap/mine dmg) * 1.29 (slower proj) = x2.492 Combine them: 3.23 * 2.49 = x8.04 Final damage: 12900 * 8.04 = 103,716 poison damage per trap Total damage: 103716 * 3 = 311,148 poison damage Conclusion: Barrage trap does 33% more damage to a stationary target than puncture trap. Puncture trap does twice as much damage to a moving target than barrage trap. This is not taking into account enemy resistances. Also, poison added a ton of extra damage. It more than doubled barrage's damage. " If you throw it under a target that doesn't move, they should all hit. However, I know barrage is notoriously bad against moving targets because it has that "After a short preparation time..." caveat. This means there is a delay before the arrows fire that can cause it to completely miss a target that runs over it. But that's okay, because you have puncture trap for moving targets. So each has a sitiuation they excel at: barrage for stationary, puncture for moving. Now I haven't played bow trapper in a while, so you'll have to let me know how it all works out. Last edited by Meridin on Feb 24, 2016, 7:08:36 PM
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" Nice to have that established. I play a Crit Tornando Shot build. I use Traps as Utility for single target burst dps to soften up the target/nuke it. Thank you Meridin. Domine Non Es Dignus
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Turns out I wasn't being fair to bleed damage, since I didn't account for double-dipping or quality on puncture.
After I calculated those in, it multiplied the bleed damage by x8. Holy shit. I'm gonna go back and edit my posts. That might be enough to change my conclusions... Edit: Ok, barrage trap is still better stationary (but without poison it was neck-and-neck with puncture). Puncture is of course still way better for moving targets as expected. Last edited by Meridin on Feb 24, 2016, 6:55:17 PM
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