List your AH fears
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Mythbusting time.
"1. The market value of high-end items does tend to go up in AH settings; however, this is not because flipping is made easier. It's a lot simpler than that. When trading is made easier, you have a large increase in the "typical player who trades" population, while the increase in the "trade tycoon" population is proportionally much smaller. Supply and demand does the rest; with more people to sell to, trade tycoons take advantage of the greater demand with roughly the same supply. It's also worth noting that flipping is a service: instead of having to spend time trying to find an interested seller or buyer of an item, you go to an intermediary for convenience. Thus, when people talk about more convenient trade systems, what they really mean are systems which take the power of flipping and put it more in the hands of the everyday player. You're not wrong in saying flipping becomes easier, but that's correct in the sense of "everybody flips," and it's not accurate to say it makes things better for dedicated flippers, because their competition would increase dramatically, making it much more difficult to get their fingers in more than a tiny slice of the overall action. "True. Supply/demand again. "The bold part is absolutely false, the rest of it is kind of a mixed bag. Your average player will gain more value trading than they would before, and as a direct result of that the average time spend trading per player will increase. However, the "guys playing Wallstreet" would actually be less effective than they were before, and if you were good at making a profit off of trades under the current trade system, an enhanced trade system would cut into your profits by giving players who are currently unwilling to compete with you the tools they need to take a slice of your action. This could potentially make a small population of current traders lose interest in trading, as trading profit becomes less related to individual skill. "I feel wanting to socialize with other traders in an online game is a little bit like refusing to buy online because you like making small talk with cashiers. Your viewpoint doesn't feel wrong to me, but it does feel weird. Harmless, perhaps, but weird. Proponents of asynchronous automated buyout systems like to point out that interaction in trading is almost entirely absent, 95+% of the time no interaction is desired or necessary; therefore, eliminating interaction completely wouldn't be any big loss. While I agree such interaction is not necessary or desired the vast, vast majority of the time, I strongly disagree with the conclusion. It's a lot like saying "99.9% of business transactions occur without any breach of contract or similar problems, so we can eliminate the tort courts completely." No. No you can't. The ability to bid on items is necessary to correct situations where items are priced incorrectly; in trading systems where bidding is impossible (or possible, but made too weak of a mechanic), undesirable economic behaviors result, because sellers quickly understand that it's the buyout way or the highway and take advantage of the situation. For this reason, the core of any trading system should be bidding, not buyouts. I'm not saying you can't have buyouts, or that you need both buyer and seller online at the same moment, but you need to keep the potential for haggling in the trade system, and design it so bid-based trading is always a viable alternative to buyout-based trading (to keep bidding strong). "I do not see why listed items could not be stored in stash tabs. Simply have items which are listed "red out" so they are obviously not fully accessible. Assuming the ability to cancel a listing at will (and why not?) then trying to move the listed item could result in an "Are you sure?" dialogue box for the seller to confirm. "Mostly untrue. I covered this idea earlier in this post. The hint of truth to it is that good - not GG, merely decent and usable - gear does become cheap as dirt when trading becomes hella easy, which virtually ensures anyone using a trading system is not undergeared for any of the mainstream content. For this reason, players who enjoy the challenges of attempting content while undergeared could find their participation in the trade system to be anti-fun. Of course, they could just voluntarily not participate or enforce a self-found rule upon themselves, but some players are remarkably lacking in discipline. "There's a lot of hyperbole here ("every item," "everyone") but the core principle is sound. The items which are currently labor-intensive to trade away for cheap now, would be vendor trash in a system where trading is even easier. ------------------ What I'd like to see is: You list an item for sale in your stash. It doesn't leave your stash, it just gets "red out" to indicate it's listed, and the seller can type whatever they desire in a text box to accompany the listing. The seller can cancel the listing (and return all bids) at any time by just moving the item from its place in the stash. Listings have no expiration, but once listed there is a tool potential buyers can use to search for your item with filters for item stats and the time the listing began, with a default of "3 days" to prevent players from finding old, abandoned listings (unless they specifically are looking for them). The one thing it wouldn't let you search by would be buyout price. The potential buyers can bid on the item, with bids which are held by the system but can be retracted and returned by the bidder at any time. Seller can accept bids manually, completing the transaction (creating a remove-only stash tab with the winning bid), or when they place the listing they can set up one or more conditions in an expression builder to automatically accept bids matching specific criteria. Each bidder's bids are hidden from bidders other than themselves, and buyers cannot see the conditions under which sellers automatically accept bids, or if they choose to have such conditions at all. Naturally, at no time would seller and bidders need to be online simultaneously for this system to work. I imagine under this system poe.trade might still exist to parse ~b/o tags in the description boxes for listings, and allow players to search by buyout (assuming they're willing to use a third-party tool). However, this would never be fully reliable, as a seller could write "~b/o 8c" in the text box and set their actual condition for automatic bid acceptance to 6c. I don't think it's necessarily bad to have third-party trading sites for PoE, I just think the base trading tools which you can access in-game should be functional enough where it doesn't feel like third-party sites are absolutely mandatory. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" For the 2nd part: Set price for 1ex for each currency item and tick "accept alternate currency" for the item in AH. Problem solved. |
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"Path of Exile will never just tell you what currency ratios are (vendor formulae tell you what they're not, but that's different). That's something for the community to collectively decide - not "figure out," but decide. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Dec 1, 2015, 2:00:40 PM
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So I suppose my question is this: how would the Wonder Bazaar players solve the issue of trading being fisking impossible for the Average Joe? You folks are all bent on protecting your profits and ‘avoiding market saturation’ by ensuring that no one is actually able to properly enter the market, but does that really sound fair?
“If everyone who had one of these things tried to sell it they wouldn’t be worth anything, so we’re going to set up an opaque, difficult-to-parse system overwhelmingly biased in favor of established sellers that forces nine out of ten players to give up in frustration, so the one remaining guy can make all the profits. Huzzah player trading!” Yeah. Is there any wonder people want some sort of tools or systems, in the actual game, that might actually allow them to, y’know…trade items? Instead of a select handful of long-established players collecting all the currency and hoarding up wealth like Wraeclastian Rockefellers? She/Her
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" Did you intentionally choose to ignore the first part? "Set price for 1ex for each currency item and tick "accept alternate currency" for the item in AH." YOU choose the ratio, not PoE. |
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"Okay then. I think it was hard to get that from what you wrote, but at the end of the day we agree. "As I've said before, flipping is a service. Your Average Joe sells low and buys high because they don't have the patience for the trading shit; the flipper profits because he does have the patience for the trading shit, and is willing to assist you in connecting you with the items or currency you desire. Flipping as a whole exists because you, the Farmers of Wraeclast, empower those people through your unwillingness to perform the job yourself. You should be thankful flippers exist, because their existence means less time trading and more time farming for you... and their services are of more and more use the more and more archaic and frustrating a trading system is. That said, although dedicated flippers are an organic and community-driven solution to the whole "trading is frustrating" problem, I don't think it's wise for the game to rely on them as heavily as it currently does. A difficult-to-use trading system obscured by third-party tools might be functional for moving items around, but it puts the real trading in the hands of a select few, rather than opening it up for more players to engage in, and potentially enjoy. I believe making trading easier is the right move on GGG's part. This doesn't mean any of that "market saturation" stuff isn't true. Items which a difficult to sell for cheap now, would become outright vendor trash if trading was made much easier. That's just how it is. Implementing an easier trading system isn't going to make stash tabs full of cheap items sell themselves, and if you're not willing to put on your flipper hat and put in the time and effort needed to sell them, nothing -- and I do mean nothing -- is going to make those items anything more than vendor fodder. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB#2697 on Dec 1, 2015, 2:47:12 PM
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RMT.
shit balanced around RMT. company taking commissions from RMT. Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun |
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" Nuff said. |
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You can always count on I_NO to sloganize the popular stupid.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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" I suppose the issue is that I’m not a farmer. I’m a player. I’m in this game to try and figure out interesting builds to play it with, try new skills, do new stuff. Sure, if I’d sunk eight thousand hours into the game the way everyone else on these forums seems to’ve I’d likely have shifted priorities, but for the most part? I’m not looking to Make A Profit, or to score a killer deal on that Mjolnir. What I want is to be able to acquire the lower-cost, non-meta build enablers that let me Do Something Cool. The issue is that I cannot do that. As you said, virtually all of the game’s trade economy is cemented in the hands of a few hundred players who’re sitting on thousands of exalts by now, whose greatest joy in life is ensuring that they keep making moarbux. I can only ‘trade’ with the scant handful of chaos I get from drops, and even then I’ve only ever hit poe.trade once, using practically all my saleable currency at the time to do so. I’m not really looking to run the flippers out of town. Experience in other games has taught me that you can’t do that – implement an economic system in a game and there will be people who dedicate themselves to mastering it and acquiring the most possible currency for the least possible effort because that’s what they enjoy doing. Awesome, enjoy that. What I’m asking for is something other games do that Path of Exile does not, which is allowing regular players to actually participate in trading. I’d love to own a Voltaxic Rift someday. There are Things I Want To Try with that bow, especially with some of the upcoming new Chaos skills/passive nodes. Problem is that I’m never going to, because it requires me to deal with a baroque, impenetrable system which people in this thread have claimed is sorta explicitly designed to be a barrier to entry for anyone who is not a ‘trade tycoon’. You’re exactly right – I do not have the time or patience to deal with folks who enjoy spending hours dangling an item in front of someone, demanding increasingly ludicrous prices, and calling it ‘haggling’. I don’t want to play the Oregon Ledge minigame, I want to play Path of Exile. Why not put enough trade tools in place to let me do that? She/Her
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