imo Mana, Energy Shield and Leech are not good enough

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

because i see a problem - players greed and overinflated expectations bordering entitlement


ofc you can spam them on mana. you just dont want to do stuff that might be needed to pull it of: drop an aura (blasphemy!), stack mana on gear (oh noes, here go my uniques with all-offensive stats), pick cheaper supports (oh noes my dips!), use reduced mana (lol i know) etc.

these are all 'weak' choices? well.. maybe. but spamming 6L spells is a) not needed as most spells do quite fine in 5L b) is a luxury of big damage and should have a price tag to it.

GGG - by a lack of foresight - induced into players that they are entitled to 6L spam for free (or maybe taking 2 nodes.. and calling it a SERIOUS investment). that was a serious mistake. mistake that made players have no respect to their fuel-resource at all. noone claims that 'resistances are not really worth it', nobody says 'damage is not really worth it' etc yet there is a constant cry-river on reddit and here that one has to 'invest 5 points into mana' (lol) and it is too much and not worth it

some stupid notion makes people think that the mana cost drawback (that is clearly by design - mana multipliers on gems) is a nuisance and should go. it is yet another mechanic that separates bad builds from good builds.

what you guys want is to remove the 'obstacle to fun' - that is braindead gameplay when one needs to hold one mouse button and kill everything without breaking a sweat. for some it is fun.. maybe. but for me it is a definition of dumbing down beyond a point of no return

when was the last time someone said 'gas is not really worth it' when standing next to run-out car? your spells need gas. you've decided to go for the gas-guzzler. fork some cash. or push it :)


btw - i have a self found CI 5Link EK mana self-caster. her gear is garbage (580 es chest, 280 es shield, rainbowstrides, junk gloves, no % jewelry etc). i total ~9000 ES and it is one of the funniest chars ive played. ofc it is not 'viable' by your 1000ex-standards because you like the dips in 6digits and atziris dying from Riposte procs but for a Joe Average that you care that much it is perfectly fine (including doing clusterf.. of fights like Jungle Valey that even some 'viable' builds like to avoid)

everything you have just said is nonsense, and i cant even be bothered to explain why tbh.

Actually everything he has said made perfect sense to me.

This is a common theme in poes playerbase where playing in a certain way makes players think they're entitled to play a certain way, even when GGG sees it as a problem. So when GGG finally decide they shouldn't play that way and nerf that way the result is either 1)players creating a similar alternative way to play 2) players crying because they can't play the same way as before

Players create their expectations themselves such as they should be able to spam 6l spells without much investment or that they shouldn't be using mana pots (they aren't peasants after all, they have thousands of hours clocked !).

So anyway literally everything sid said made a ton of sense, especially getting rid of the bm gem that simply trivializes resource management with little to no drawback. When BM gem is removed, it will be glorious. No brainless solution to resource management anymore. People will actually have to sacrifice something to have good resouce management, such as going BM keystone or using RM or using mama nodes or using new EB/mom/zo/gr

And Snorkle, I made it through that war and peace sized post and I don't understand what the hell was its point. It sounded like a mix of chronicles of poe meta and some strange attempt to prove that you're objective towards non casters. Why ?

Nowhere in poe history did GGG come out and said guys the goal for this game is to do as much damage as possible while being able to spam one skill and not invest much in resource management. That was the players who kinda layed down the meta. And well sheeple follow.

Sid is so much on point with that statement its not even funny.and it doesn't even have to be about mana. People don't wanna pay for shit in poe. They don't want to pay for resource management.they don't wanna pay for maps.they don't want to pay with time by grinding low maps. They don't wanna sacrifice defense or damage they've accustomed to.

Players turned this game into a min max simulator, ie to pay the least and get the most. An 'ideal' build is something that gets as much of defense/offense as possible without having many downsides or having to pay much. And they think it should be that way.

Fuck that, I hope GGG turns some dumb axioms that were only assumed by the players upside down. But I don't think they have the cajones, sadly enough.

"

grepman wrote:

Fuck that, I hope GGG turns some dumb axioms that were only assumed by the players upside down. But I don't think they have the cajones, sadly enough.

I still remember the wailing and screaming in the forums when Reduced Mana change was unveiled during the beta...

"don't know how I'll kill a single monster without Hatred, Anger, and three heralds all running!"

"now all the socket colors in my mirrored gear are wrong, how could you betray us like this GGG!"

"I'm totally quitting the game, stacking auras was the only thing that made it fun!!"

And now, players are reaching level 100 in the course of 10 days.

Players just hate change, any change, that upsets the way they've done their builds. There's no modification that could make the overall player base happy if it even remotely made resource management more challenging. But it's those sorts of changes that are absolutely necessary for the health of the game.

+1 for removal of Blood Magic gem. No build deserves a magic bullet to get around the fuel source for their skills.

Incinerate is OP not because its mana cost can be reduced to 0.
It's OP because it has ~4 times greater base DPS (compared to other spells). Yes, other spells can crit, but even if you invest heavily into crit, you can barely make it match incinerate, which allows you to put your nodes into HP and other defences (thus making a MUCH better build).

Totems arent OP themselves. Flame totem is. Especially considering how many crits/sec it does (recharging surgeon flasks instantly). Other two viable totems are Shockwave totem (good but not even close to Flame Totem) and Spell Totem with Incinerate (good because Incinerate is OP).
Spell totem with other spells? God forbid, it sucks...


Now, about hybrid.
MoM is just underpowered. If you use it on mana, it is meant to add your mana pool to your life pool. But! Characters get only +4 mana per level (compared to +12 life), and mana rolls on gear are also much lower than life. That means your base mana pool will be around 2 times less than base life. Note, that there are very few hybrid life/mana nodes. While most mana clusters offer around +12% mana per point, it is nullified by low base mana pool - getting a +5% life node is about the same bonus to HP. Getting both high life and mana regen is impossible - too few hybrid nodes. You can use leech (both life and mana), but that means you make physical attack build (waste 2 support gems on spells is not an option).
You lose very valuable aura - Hatred, and Arctic Armour/HoA, you invest many, many nodes into mana, you grab +mana rolls and mana leech on your gear, and what for?
I tried to make such a build for my Scion, used crit staff (perfect location for MoM)... Itemization is just a pain in ass - you actually need a gear with 6 good rolls. And even then, it has just a bit higher HP pool, without good regen, and losing a bulk of damage/CC (Hatred) and protection from AA.
Oh, and doesnt work for DoTs...
When i invest so much, i expect to get MUCH higher total HP pool, not just something like 10-15% more. In my opinion, either getting high mana pool should be much easier, or MoM should have nodes behind it, that increase its effectiveness.

ES, on other hand, just uses a BAD approach. It is made as if meant to REPLACE life, rather than work WITH life. Because of 2 things:
1. 100% damage mitigation. If you want ES to work WITH life, then it should absorb damage partially, allowing both life and ES recovery occur. ATM, players "fix" it either with EB/MoM, or certain jewel (which doesnt work on elemental damage).
2. ES recovery doesnt happen in combat. For me, huge HP pool is worth a little if you cant recover it quickly. There are 3 ways to recover ES in combat - Ghost Reaver, Zealot's Oath and Aegis Aurora. And first two just "switch" certain way of life recovery into ES recovery (thus, meant to REPLACE life with ES).
So, we leave with Aegis Aurora. Suddenly, it makes a viable hybrid build..... Why? Because mechanics allows.

About leech. I dont find new life leech being much worse than old for physical attacks. You can easily get enough LL to get that fancy 20% hp/sec recovery. Mana leech is worse if your free mana pool is too low, but with decent free mana pool it's still OK. Proved by my duelist archer.
Instant life leech is what got the nerfhammer's hit. Your Life Leech with Vaal Pact is now 2 times less than before. With Atziri's Acuity, it's 3 times less.

About mana - it's completely OK for attacks, because those have low mana cost and can leech/gain mana per hit.
But for spells, mana sucks indeed. Why? Just because spells have too high base mana costs. Most attack skills dont have more than 15 base mana cost (usually - around 10-12), while spells have 25+ mana costs at 20 level, and spells with lower mana costs have higher base cast speed. Abd spells cant even leech mana or gain mana on hit. WTF?

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

I still remember the wailing and screaming in the forums when Reduced Mana change was unveiled during the beta...

"don't know how I'll kill a single monster without Hatred, Anger, and three heralds all running!"

"now all the socket colors in my mirrored gear are wrong, how could you betray us like this GGG!"

"I'm totally quitting the game, stacking auras was the only thing that made it fun!!"

And now, players are reaching level 100 in the course of 10 days.

Players just hate change, any change, that upsets the way they've done their builds. There's no modification that could make the overall player base happy if it even remotely made resource management more challenging. But it's those sorts of changes that are absolutely necessary for the health of the game.

+1 for removal of Blood Magic gem. No build deserves a magic bullet to get around the fuel source for their skills.

You're wrong, only Standard players hate it.
Temporary leagues' players like me LIKE changes, if those bring better balance and build diversity. I'm glad auras got nerfs again, because this change made BM(on life) and MoM(on mana) builds more viable. BM is a viable keystone ATM. MoM is still underpowered, but i hope it will be fixed.

"

You're wrong, only Standard players hate it.

Maybe you're right - I'm sure if Blood Magic gem was removed and went legacy, the response from temp league players would be entirely reasonable and proportionate ;)

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

"

You're wrong, only Standard players hate it.

Maybe you're right - I'm sure if Blood Magic gem was removed and went legacy, the response from temp league players would be entirely reasonable and proportionate ;)

I dont understand why you find BM gem OP, actually (when your for main 6-L skill). It's -1 gem slot for your main skill - usually a solid 25-35% DPS loss. And it has a huge mana multiplier, so spamming really expensive skills will considerably reduce your HP recovery. You can get BM keystone, and get the same benefits - you lose auras (DPS loss), but you gain +1 link (DPS gain), usually gain/loss is around the dame.

I totally agree with Snorkle on the mana part expecially. I have now an arc/shock nova/tendrils witch, and even with 2 elreon rings and a lvl 18 clarity, my mana goes down badly (around 180%+ mana regen on tree, too!!!), and on a simple FOUR LINK. And no, i don't wanna use a mana pot, because in a game in which WITH A LEGACY LIGHTNING COIL some blue mobs hits you for 2k life (madness -.- ), that pot slot is needed for the 5th life flask -.-

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

For instance culling strike is like a 20-25% more support, whereas multistrike is 35% more. However culling is a 1.1 mana multiplier and multistrike is 1.8, so culling is often a good choice, because you simply won't be able to get enough mana regen to make full use of multistrike.

Multistrike's mana multiplier wasnt intended for SRS, it was intended for attacks, for which it's actually reduced to 120% (100% more AS, but only 1/3 of attacks cost mana).
Using cheap supports is a good thing, but spells still have abymal base mana costs (20-30 mana) and dont provide any mana leech, and that makes spells unfairly weak compared to attacks. Only a spell with HUGE base DPS (guess who? Incinerate) can compete with attacks, because even with investments into mana and mana regen (instead of DPS) its DPS will be OK.

"

Wispo wrote:

I totally agree with Snorkle on the mana part expecially. I have now an arc/shock nova/tendrils witch, and even with 2 elreon rings and a lvl 18 clarity, my mana goes down badly (around 180%+ mana regen on tree, too!!!), and on a simple FOUR LINK. And no, i don't wanna use a mana pot, because in a game in which WITH A LEGACY LIGHTNING COIL some blue mobs hits you for 2k life (madness -.- ), that pot slot is needed for the 5th life flask -.-

Yeah, i dont understand reason behind it too.

Doing a simple math there:
Base mana cost for most spells is 20-30 mana. Base mana cost for most attack skills is 8-15 mana. Essentially, attacks cost 2 times less than spells.
Attacks can leech mana, gaining 20% mana regen almost for free. Or get "mana gained per hit" (jewels, etc), and sustaining mana even with elemental attacks easily.

And what about DPS? Most spells have around 500-900 base DPS, while good weapons have 200-600 base DPS. But, attack skills themselves provide a great damage multiplier (120-150%), they dont need Life Leech gem to sustain HP (+1 support gem for 120-140% damage) and their damage isnt subject to resistance (easy free DPS on top of that). And weapons with low base DPS usually have base critical strike chance much higher than spells do.
Overall, attacks reach the same (if not higher) DPS than spells, but they cost 2 times less and can easily recover mana. So, attack do it withclose to 0 investments into mana, and spells should spend additional 10+ nodes and some gear rolls for mana sustain. When attack build spelds those nodes on DPS (or even better - on HP), it easily outperforms caster.
Except for incinerate, of course, because incinerate has 3600 base DPS(!). With such powerful base DPS,incinerate caster CAN allow investments into mana sustain (even without Elreon's rings), life leech gem, HP, penetration and still have viable DPS.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

Fuck that, I hope GGG turns some dumb axioms that were only assumed by the players upside down. But I don't think they have the cajones, sadly enough.

I still remember the wailing and screaming in the forums when Reduced Mana change was unveiled during the beta...

"don't know how I'll kill a single monster without Hatred, Anger, and three heralds all running!"

"now all the socket colors in my mirrored gear are wrong, how could you betray us like this GGG!"

"I'm totally quitting the game, stacking auras was the only thing that made it fun!!"

And now, players are reaching level 100 in the course of 10 days.

Players just hate change, any change, that upsets the way they've done their builds. There's no modification that could make the overall player base happy if it even remotely made resource management more challenging. But it's those sorts of changes that are absolutely necessary for the health of the game.

+1 for removal of Blood Magic gem. No build deserves a magic bullet to get around the fuel source for their skills.

Blood Magic is not even that good for spells.
Ironically, Reduced Mana is better for that now because it stacks additively with Reduced Mana Cost of Skills.
12% or so RMCS and RM is just enough to halve your skill costs and let you run sustainably on an underleveled Clarity.

If you're going to give up a slot for mana econ, Blood Magic and Mana Leech are ass.

Blood Magic and Flame Totems gives me conniptions. While it's the widely-accepted doctrine for how to build Flame Totem. It. Is. Just. Not. Necessary. RMCS with auras is about as good or better than Blood Magic for that set up.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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MoLoK13 wrote:

"

You're wrong, only Standard players hate it.

Maybe you're right - I'm sure if Blood Magic gem was removed and went legacy, the response from temp league players would be entirely reasonable and proportionate ;)

I dont understand why you find BM gem OP, actually (when your for main 6-L skill). It's -1 gem slot for your main skill - usually a solid 25-35% DPS loss. And it has a huge mana multiplier, so spamming really expensive skills will considerably reduce your HP recovery. You can get BM keystone, and get the same benefits - you lose auras (DPS loss), but you gain +1 link (DPS gain), usually gain/loss is around the dame.

You need to think of it in terms of enabling auras. With an Elreon ring or two and some aura reduction, you can easily run Incinerate with 100% worth of reserves. Or Anger with some smaller auras tacked on.

I'd debate whether that makes it "OP" because, as you say, it's more of a lateral recovery of dps than a straight-up buff.

"

MortalKombat3 wrote:

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

Yeah, i dont understand reason behind it too.

Doing a simple math there:
Base mana cost for most spells is 20-30 mana. Base mana cost for most attack skills is 8-15 mana. Essentially, attacks cost 2 times less than spells.
Attacks can leech mana, gaining 20% mana regen almost for free. Or get "mana gained per hit" (jewels, etc), and sustaining mana even with elemental attacks easily.

And what about DPS? Most spells have around 500-900 base DPS, while good weapons have 200-600 base DPS. But, attack skills themselves provide a great damage multiplier (120-150%), they dont need Life Leech gem to sustain HP (+1 support gem for 120-140% damage) and their damage isnt subject to resistance (easy free DPS on top of that). And weapons with low base DPS usually have base critical strike chance much higher than spells do.
Overall, attacks reach the same (if not higher) DPS than spells, but they cost 2 times less and can easily recover mana. So, attack do it withclose to 0 investments into mana, and spells should spend additional 10+ nodes and some gear rolls for mana sustain. When attack build spelds those nodes on DPS (or even better - on HP), it easily outperforms caster.
Except for incinerate, of course, because incinerate has 3600 base DPS(!). With such powerful base DPS,incinerate caster CAN allow investments into mana sustain (even without Elreon's rings), life leech gem, HP, penetration and still have viable DPS.

Finally someone that reason well!!!!
Please good mate, go YOU to explain this to all those that, with the "mask" of defending magic, have in reality the goal to defend ggg's poor choices -.- Because i have lost hope to making them understand U.U