imo Mana, Energy Shield and Leech are not good enough
" You are talking as if lightning casters didn't exist pre 2.0.0. Or suggesting they are in a better place. Think about what you just wrote, dude. Casually casual. Last edited by TheAnuhart#4741 on Oct 28, 2015, 4:51:41 AM
|
|
" Lots of other things changed between 1.3 and 2.0 for casters besides just EB, obviously. But given all those other changes, I like new EB to compensate for them. Again, now that RM doesn't work with auras and AA doesn't need mana regen, new EB is an improvement. |
|
" Just want to touch on this again. We all know Path of Exile is highly seasonal, but what if it wasn't? Why does it have to be? Everyone "knowing" POE is seasonal only perpetuates the problem. Leagues die off FAST, we all know this, it's a basic negative feedback loop. If we actually had builds that were worth investing hundreds of hours and hundreds of exalts into, people would stick around longer and the active playerbase would be far less tidal. Such arbitrarily large investments are being suffocated by the player vs developer metagame. Who the fuck is going to drop 1k exalts into a build only to have the nerf hammer of doom shit all over your face, and stash, in XY weeks time? Not many, if any. An example to illustrate my point: Open Beta Lowlife Righteous Fire Spark Totems: Was strong, got nerfnuked and still hasn't recovered? I know that nobody has been particularly hyped about spark for a long time. Release Lowlife Spectral Throw: Orders of magnitude more powerful than the previous poster-child of NERFNUKED BUILDS™ and orders of magnitude more expensive. Were these builds really that big of an issue in a (hardcore?) temporary league context? I understand you want to promote diversity in all area's of the game (allegedly), but the power of these builds was gated behind phenomenal wealth. These builds deserved to be nerfed, not obliterated. It's painfully obvious you had a checklist of everything that made them strong and you literally crossed off each entry for 2.0.0. What is going on here? Great job conditioning the player base to withhold investment. IGN: Victory_Or_Sovngarde It's not a 13 week development cycle, it's a 13 week supporter-pack cycle. You can play any build you want, as long as it's the current meta. Last edited by Ashen_Shugar_IV#4253 on Oct 28, 2015, 6:51:00 PM
|
|
|
I don't agree with most of the negative feedback in this thread. Partly because I believe the logic is flawed (e.g. saying casters should stack life+es because rangers stack life+ev is very level 0 reasoning), partly because I have different beliefs (yes OP builds need to be hammered so you have incentive to theorycraft new builds, because that discovery process is the best part of this game).
But the main point I am curious about is: " As someone who has made multiple 2.0 uber-capable hybrid builds (coc discharger, incinerate + scold + vms, SRS), I think hybrid is very strong. You can even make hybrid attack builds with cool items like binos (regen HP, leech ES or vice versa), not uber capable but fine for leveling to 100. All of these are described in more detail in the link in my signature. At what point do these builds stop counting as exceptions and rather count as the rule to showing how strong hybrid is? As to your suggesiotns, are you thinking of old school builds that use 5k life and 2k ES? Most hybrids these days go 3k life and 6k ES. Those nodes would be worthless. The problem is spellcasting, because (I agree with you here) it is spread out too thin, not hybrid. An easy fix would be to just increase the base regen on clarity by 5-10 mana/sec. That way with 2 points and good gear spell casters could solve regen and spec the rest into damage/survival. BTW less and no regen maps are needed to tax spellcasters, and you can easily do them with a 6L or 7L with a properly rolled mana flask (I did plenty of noregen with SRS in 2.0). Edit: saw your hybrid build. Nice chest. Looks like your problem is that you're using arc. All my builds /view-thread/1430399 T14 'real' clearspeed challenge /1642265 Last edited by MatrixFactor#3574 on Oct 28, 2015, 1:31:06 PM
|
|
" pre 2.0 my arc witch was running disc, hot, lvl22 clarity, arctic armour and had over 2500 free mana left over. Running Hot Warth and AA? That would have been joke easy. MoLoK13m you dont really understand my post, I could respond to what you posted point by point but it would just take too long and i dont think it would go anywhere. " you cant on mana in a lot of cases, that is the point, there are too many cases where you literally cant. Pay for it and stuff like this suggests people can make it work but dont want to spend the points, they dont have the points and the nodes you need to spend them on do not exist even if they could afford them which they cant. Its just an ignorant statement by someone who I dont think sees the problem. " you think Ive never played a hybrid character? Im thinking of old school builds? No Im thinking of how to make a range of builds and make hybrid more accessable on a budget and in a wider variety of ways. Why do you go for 3k life and 6k es? For your survivability that is shit, you want 6k life and 3k es but you have it reversed because that makes you es sustains work because if you had 3k es your regen and/or leech would be utter shit. You are forced into playing with a small life pool and a big es pool by mechanics and hybrid as a whole is weaker and more limited because of it. Maybe not your builds, but the potential for builds is weaker in the bigger picture. The problem you have with my thread is that you are thinking about a small number of example builds you have played and you are thinking about what is currently possible. Im talking about builds in general and what could be possible if changes were made. those nodes would do nothing for your characters... right, but they would do something for other characters, you do realise this isnt about your couple of builds and what could make them better right? You are running uber on your builds... so why should a change I suggest help your builds? They are there to help builds that cant run uber, that cant even run maps and should be able to run maps, builds that no one other than noobs who have fuckled up their character make because the idea of stacking good life and then having 'some' es is a completely flawed concept due to the mechanics that I am suggesting extra options for. I didnt say hybrid was a problem did I? Its not the go to emta for casters, neither is ci, neither is low life, neither is eb, in fact the caster meta doesnt revolve around caster defenses at all. This is the first thing I wrote in the post... "A lot of posts on tese things recently I feel have gone to far, there are good ci builds, hybrid builds" you realise if I had stopped to say ok, theres a problem here but theres this little selection of builds that can work but those are not enough builds and theres this lot that dont work and its not a popular choice and.... its too much, I would have written a 60 paragraph post if I put in every little exception so yes, you have hybrids that work, I have hybrids that work, yes your hybrids wouldnt benefit from those changes... your builds are not all builds, finding some hybrids that are strong does not = hybrid is fine and nothing to increase the viability of hybrid builds in general is needed. Your builds will stop counting as exceptions the day they are part of a wider meta that most casters are part of. " don't agree with most of the negative feedback in this thread. Partly because I believe the logic is flawed (e.g. saying casters should stack life+es because rangers stack life+ev is very level 0 reasoning)," no this is not flawed logic, this is how you design a game and make your designs work. If you make casters, caster classes and then caster defenses, put them in the game then the game suggests if you want to be a caster you start as a caster class and take the caster defenses. If they dont work and thats not the 'smart' way to play the game then you have fucked up as a game designer because thats what the game is telling players to do essentially and thats what you designed these things to be. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
|
|
|
btw, you made many hybrids work, incinerate aka spell you dont need to stack damage for aka not a good example of anything other than having to fall back on a broken spell because you couldnt have done the same thing with the majority of non broken spells which is something I mentioned in the original post... coc discharge, aka not a proper self cast spell caster and srs, not a proper self cast spell caster.
So from this you have worked out that hybrid self cast spell casters are in a good spot? From basically 1 self cast spell caster build and thats an incinerate build? Do you see the problem here? I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
|
|
"So true. You have my thumbs up Snorkle. Ranger builds list: /917964
When two witches watch two watches, which witch watches which watch? If the witches watching watches watch the same watch while you watch which witch watches which watch, they switch watches; then, the watch switching witches watch which watch you watch. Watching witches watch watches is not for the faint of heart... |
|
" Spell casting is the problem, not hybrid. I can't think of any regular spell besides incinerate that I would want to self-cast for end game. I had tons of fun with tendrils in 1.2, but it's not good now. I don't like ball lightning's limited AoE. Glacial cascade and firestorm are alright. But it's really limited to ice storm or incinerate for self-cast now. And ice storm is it's own exception to the rule. Though to some extent you could consider EA, PA, and totems to be in the same class of builds as self-casting; and hybrid is ok for totems, and EA. " Maybe. But simplistic game design where the player knows in advance what's going to work is boring. We play this game to theorycraft. What's the point of theorycrafting and leveling new characters to test unintuitive/difficult mechanics if you can intuit everything based on analogy to similar builds and then just build the objectively strongest character right away? " This is a good point. I would like to see changes that don't help the builds that already work, that's actually a really good way to think about it. Though I think it would be cool to add branches behind ghost reaver and zo, to enable even more stuff. Something like regen is based off of 60-80% of HP+ES, more recharge delay reduction stuff, chance to avoid ES recharge interruption, etc. All my builds /view-thread/1430399 T14 'real' clearspeed challenge /1642265 Last edited by MatrixFactor#3574 on Oct 28, 2015, 2:07:01 PM
|
|
"Sure, but at least the default logical path for caster should work. Some other may be better, but the default one should work. I haven't tried much pure casters since 2.0. My first real attempt in 1mth league was a big failure (I didn't choosed the right spell too, with ball lightning). I also tried an ele crit melee build with berek's grip and some spirit void. It just doesn't work[1]. But It's only two samples so I don't have the global picture. Totems and PA are easy to sustain on mana. This is not true for expensive skills you spam 5+ times per seconds, from my limited experience described above. edit: so many typos :s [1] it works however if I use mana leech support. Ranger builds list: /917964 When two witches watch two watches, which witch watches which watch? If the witches watching watches watch the same watch while you watch which witch watches which watch, they switch watches; then, the watch switching witches watch which watch you watch. Watching witches watch watches is not for the faint of heart... Last edited by Panini_aux_olives#1967 on Oct 28, 2015, 4:42:10 PM
|
|
" well, I agree with you, basically, I agree with what you have said here. But its sort of roundabouts and swings, if you didnt have to invest so much to make es and mana work you could invest enough in damage to make those other spells work, its like a give and take thing. You can make super duper hybrid builds, Ive made quite a few, but there is that thing where they are wearing 1000 exalts of gear and I cant just make any old spell caster work like that, I have niche little things where this coc aegis iron reflex shadow makes an awesome hybrid and this crit dagger reaver with instant leech via gloves is insane and.... then theres that thing where you have a noob whos come to the game, started witch, he has 3k life, 1.5k es and he wants to know why his build is utter shit. Then to cut a long story short the answer is deleted your character, buy a lightning coil and roll a scion with a bm gem because what you are doing, life + es, its not going to work for you, even if u get zo and life regen and ghost reaver you will not sustain your es the way you are doing it with that shit scrubby self found gear you have. In the old days you would say ok, get EB and then run arctic armour, now your build works, now days its "the problem you have is that you started a caster as a caster class and you used caster gear, the best way you as a noob can make a caster right now is to not pick and int class and not wear int gear, go marauder, use flame totem and stack armour, thats the way you are going to get past cruel difficulty". People who say "hybrid is shit its not viable" Ill always argue against those people, same with ci is shit and not viable... its all viable. Hybrid can be utter beast mode. But why is it not the meta? Why has using es as es only ever been the meta once in this game and that was in open beta when ci was everything, path of ci. Any other point in this games life the meta was to use es as mana via eb or to not use es at all. Why is that the case? Well we have these opopie ci, low life and hybrid builds, but theyre niche things and if we are really honest I think the truth is es is just not good enough, generally speaking, theres too many ways of doing it that are absolutely terrible. Armour, stack armour, you now have armour and it works. Evasion, stack evasion and it works, you now have evasion. Stack es and basically you es just disapears on contact with mobs and you are fucked, it doesnt work. So you go zo and you stack loads of life regen and gr leech and you need a shit ton of es to make either of those things work and now you have double figure exalt bills for your gear and once youve done all that you dont have enough points left to spec virtually any mana or damage so you are brought down to 'well i have to use incinerate or flame totem or incinerate totem and I need 0 mana cost because I just cant afford ANY mana now and even if I specced every single mana node in the top of the tree I STILL couldnt fuel my spells on mana' and all of a sudden you now have this tiny little expensive niche of where es actually works the way it should work. Now we can push those niche builds in peoples faces and say hey buddy, hybrid IS viable look at this, CI IS viable look at this... Yes its viable but is it good enough in the wider picture? When we get away from individual examples and look at the wider build meta is es good enough? No, its just not good enough, es isnt good enough, mana isnt good enough. You cna say spells arnt good enough but thats sort of the same thing because if the spell was better you would need less damage and could spend more on es and mana sustain and that would work out. But heres the problem with that, if the spell gets better and you have those extra points, you could spend them on making your es work, or you could still use a lightning coil scion and spend all those points on even more damage and that would still be the spell caster meta. Buff the spells and you are not going to make people have an es mana based spell meta, you are just going to keep the same str/dex heavy spell meta with more powerful spells imo. edit: see, this is what I mean about 30 paragraph posts, to explain all that is going through my head is just too much, no one has time for all this text I feel, thats why I said what I said at the start of my post in the hope that GGG understand their game enough to see these things between the lines of my original post because I would literally need to write a short book to explain fully why Im suggesting a new very specific things and I feel like those specific suggestions would just be lost in the mountain of words. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :) Last edited by Snorkle_uk#0761 on Oct 28, 2015, 3:28:36 PM
|
|
