imo Mana, Energy Shield and Leech are not good enough

theyre just not good enough. A lot of posts on tese things recently I feel have gone to far, there are good ci builds, hybrid builds, leech isnt completely worthless. But they are generally lacking in the bigger picture despite examples of specific individual cases where they are good.


I tried to write this post explaining in detail why I think these things are lacking, the effect its having, some suggestions for changes... We got to about 30 long paragraphs, looked at the post, still wasnt complete, deleted it. I dont know how to fully explain this stuff in short little posts that can be consumed, the issues are just too big. Im just going to settle for a few suggestions along side some sweeping generalizations and hope that if someone from GGG reads this then they can look past the individual case exceptions and see the bigger problems.



Whats wrong with casters?





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Hybrid Life + Es

This should be the go to default for casters, start witch and get life + es mirroring the way marauders and rangers work. But sustaining es is too hard in most cases. No one has time to read 10 extra paragraphs of me explaining why and the exceptions and why they still dont matter so Im just going to say it needs to be better.

If Im understanding leech and regen mechanics properly then I think these nodes should be added to the tree...

A node behind Zealots Oath with "energy shield regen % is based off maximum life"

A node behind Ghost Reaver with "energy shield leech rate is based off maximum life".


I think hybrid, eb and eb+mom would be in a much better state with these nodes, far more appealing and cost appropriate.




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Life Leech


I like the theory of the new leech, better on packs less so single target. Its just too nerfed though, the mechanical idea is sound the cutting leech down to 1/5 of its previous values was way too harsh.

Ok you want physical melee to get more leech and more defense than casters etc... Right, but they already did before you made these changes, they already had way more powerful leech and defense options. This is just far too extreme a nerf, youve gone over board and its hurting the game too much, too many builds are left shabby because all they had was 1/3 of the leech of a melee build, none of the defense, less life... the leech was the only thing making it even worth playing those builds.

Right now leech is at 1/5 of its old value right? 1% is now 0.2%, this desperately needs relaxed. 1/2 or 2/5 at the very least, 1% going down to 0.5% or 0.4%. The direction of the mechanics regarding packs vs single target is commendable but leech feels so bad now even for physical melee who have specced leech nodes.



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Mana


its crap, straight up mana is crap. Too often you just dont have the points to make mana work late game and the nodes arnt on the tree even if you could afford to spec them which you cant. Yes exceptions and yes steve with his 4L spell running around cruel A3 is doing ok, fine, no one cares. Late game fueling 6 links with spells that need to be throwing out 40k+ dps constantly spammed are not ok, you just cant even get half way to an acceptable mana sustain on an acceptable point investment in too many cases.

Mana pots? No, just no...



Let people use their skills, they dont have 30 points to spend on mana along with 10 gear affixes, they dont have 20 points, they dont even have 10 points to spend solely on mana while also getting enough life, es, defense, damage etc. If you have 2 mana regen stats on gear, 2 flat mana stats and you have spent 6 to 8 points on pure mana with some hybrid nodes somewhere you should be able to fuel your skills on a 6 link casting as many times per second as your cast speed is stacked. If any larger investment is required its not viable, theres too many other things that need those points and gear stats in defense and offense.

open beta mana was shit so people used bm gems. Then came the eb rush with arctic armour and people used eb because pure mana was shit. Now you take away eb and people are using bm gems again, 0 cost elreon etc because mana is still shit and people will not play the game using a mana pot pressed every 2 seconds to fuel their self cast 6L arc or freeze pulse.

If I play melee I can spam my skills infinitely, if I play bows I can spam arrows infinitely, how do i do that on a 6L spell caster without using a bm gem or warlords mark CoH herald of thunder or some other awful way to completely bypass a mana system which just doesnt work? In most cases you just cant afford to get enough nodes and gear stats to make it happen, not all cases, but most, its impossible. You dont even use an alternative because its cheaper or easier, you use one because you are FORCED to by a completely dysfunctional game mechanic.





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Casters, rambling thoughts on where poe is going...

Interesting post, a few thoughts -

1. EB/MoM/ZO is perfectly fine. There is no problem here. The new EB I'd say is actually an improvement over the old, because you can reserve 100% of mana and still have a pool to cast from. This is a huge boost to casters (in particular those who use lightning skills, because Wrath is great) which I think is totally underrated by the community.

2. Sustaining on mana isn't easy, I agree, but it can be overcome.

"

Mana pots? No, just no...

Well, why not? They were buffed in 2.0 and a totally viable option to sustain casting now. It requires slightly more mechanical skill from the player in remembering to use it, but that's hardly as game-breaking as you make it out to be.

Another way to look at it: Blood Magic lets you totally ignore mana, at the cost of getting zero auras. EB used to let you totally ignore mana as long as you ran a leveled Clarity. The downsides of the two are hardly comparable. Now, BM actually has a place in the game as a caster resource where it never did before, and casting off mana takes a bit more investment and thought.

I also play almost exclusively casters - mana sustain is a problem to be overcome, and it can be frustrating, but it's definitely not game-breaking.

Option 1: EB/MoM/ZO, gear for it with Blood Dance boots and use Enduring Cry. Problem solved.

Option 2: take Clarity and invest in mana regen nodes, get added mana on your gear (very important). Add a mana flask to your belt.

Option 3: Blood Magic.

Now, regarding leech, there I think you have a solid point that it sucks now. Mana and life leech should not operate off the same mechanics, and it particularly screws ele attack builds such as Wanders (casters are not nearly so affected). The problem is, if you add an "Option 4: mana leech is really good" it trivializes the 3 above and becomes all that's needed with a single affix on a single gear slot, which GGG probably doesn't want. So balancing these is not so simple as you'd make it out to be.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

1. EB/MoM/ZO is perfectly fine.

no theyre not, theyre not good enough for the investment in too many cases. the new eb is not a huge boost to casters, its simply not the case at all. They said the old eb was too good and thats why they destroyed it, even GGG does not think the new eb is a boost to casters.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

2. Sustaining on mana isn't easy, I agree, but it can be overcome.

no, a lot of the time it cant be overcome with a workable investment.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

"

Mana pots? No, just no...

Well, why not? They were buffed in 2.0 and a totally viable option to sustain casting now. It requires slightly more mechanical skill from the player in remembering to use it, but that's hardly as game-breaking as you make it out to be.

remembering to use it? when you run out of mana in 2 seconds of casting and forget to use your mana pot? You cant fuel spammed 6 link endgame high speed casting on mana pots.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

Option 1: EB/MoM/ZO, gear for it with Blood Dance boots and use Enduring Cry. Problem solved.

Option 2: take Clarity and invest in mana regen nodes, get added mana on your gear (very important). Add a mana flask to your belt.

so option 1 is every caster should forget mana because its broken and still use eb and be forced to use a unique pair of dex boots along with a strength mechanic endurance buff to fuel their skills? Thats a good way for the game to play out for int based casters?

option 2 involves a mana pot...

so yeah as I said, its broken and needs fixed. You think I dont know to stack mana and mana regen on gear and take mana points on the tree? You think I dont know i should be running clarity? Show me your 6 link 100 mana cost 5 casts per second arc/freeze pulse/ek style build that fuels purely off clarity, mana regen on gear and tree and also does 40k+ dps and has the defense levels needed to take on lvl80+ maps, not using elreon jewelery, blood magic gems, curse based mana leech etc to bypass the fact you cant do it on mana regen. For every build that can manage that theres going to be 10 that should be able to and cant so they are forced to use strength and dex based mechanics like bm gems to fuel their skills to go along with the strength and dex based gear they are using to defend themselves while they stock up on the life they need to survive by going to the strength and dex areas of the tree. And then they look at their build plan and decide to start scion and just screw even thinking about making a purely int based caster because 9 out of 10 times its the shit option.





I understand where you are coming form with you post but it sounds to me like we are not talking about the same level of builds or the same general principals in the game. Im not talking about scraping by and making something, anything 'work' while you are level 80 clearing T3 maps. Im talking about what is healthy for overall trends in the game and what paths offer the potential to actually make really good, serious endgame characters that are worthy of investing 100s of hours and 100s of exalts into. Telling me to use blood dance zo and that makes the mana situation in the game fine for int based characters is just so far from understanding what Im talking about.

There was a time in this game when the best way to make a bow ranger was to take iron reflexes and spec all the way over to marauder and templar to get what you need because evasion and the ranger tree were absolute garbage. That didnt mean there were no bow builds that worked, sure there were, but that doesnt mean that was a healthy situation for the build meta. They fixed it by making evasion and the ranger tree good and now bow builds dont find themselves based in the left side of the tree. There was a time when the best casters were marauders using bm gems, again, you could make casters work, but having marauders be the best casters is a sign that they had royally fucked up the witch. like the ranger situation they fixed it and witches started to be the go to casters and their go to gear was es gear and everything worked. Now theyve fucked it up again and we are back to blood magic casters just like open beta...

I liked the rambling part at the end the most, not because the other points aren't valid, but because this is indeed something that needs addressing as a holistic concept.

I applaud you for the well written feedback Snorkle. I had a joy reading it i don't agree with all of your suggestions, but i recognize the underlying dysfunctional principles and that's the most important part in my opinion.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

Now, regarding leech, there I think you have a solid point that it sucks now. Mana and life leech should not operate off the same mechanics, and it particularly screws ele attack builds such as Wanders (casters are not nearly so affected). The problem is, if you add an "Option 4: mana leech is really good" it trivializes the 3 above and becomes all that's needed with a single affix on a single gear slot, which GGG probably doesn't want. So balancing these is not so simple as you'd make it out to be.

mana leech is fine for physical attack builds with 1 mana leech affix on gear, that still works and can fuel a 6 link attack hitting 9 times per second infinitely.

They were not trying to screw over mana leech, they were trying to change life leech and they have acknowledged that mana leech has unfairly been dragged into these 'fixes' based around how life leech works. So yes it is easy to balance, you fix life leech and its done, the only issue with mana leech is that its been hurt by changes that were not intended to hurt it.

you do realise im my post im talking about life leech right? Not mana leech, maybe I should make that more clear in the op.

"

the new eb is not a huge boost to casters, its simply not the case at all.

If EB had stayed the same I couldn't run HoT + Wrath + AA on a lightning caster, which is a great DPS boost, without investing heavily into aura nodes which are even less efficient. I've made two characters now which sustained mana on EB/MOM/ZO and it works fine for clearing maps, and got me my 20 challenge completions in the 1MHC. I'll be making a third one in the 5week.

I guess if my experience isn't enough, here's an SRS build that used EB and got Rank #4 in the Tempest league. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1365387

That's pretty good evidence that EB/ZO is far from broken or unusable, and offers some distinct advantages (less investment into aura nodes, better ability to use flasks than hybrid defense).

"

You cant fuel spammed 6 link endgame high speed casting on mana pots.

If you're on a 6link and need to spam your attack skill to kill normal packs I'd say you have a damage problem, not a mana problem. Or maybe consider making one of those links "Reduced Mana".

"

Show me your 6 link 100 mana cost 5 casts per second arc/freeze pulse/ek style build that fuels purely off clarity, mana regen on gear and tree

Well, my low life Arc char in Standard is only level 76 now because I haven't played her much, so the DPS is just 25k, and I haven't filled in the 6th link on my Shavs yet (again, it should probably be Reduced Mana) but with mana gain on kill from Divinarius she sustains against standard packs just fine. I don't have enough flat mana on gear yet but that's just an itemization problem.

Edit: took my own advice and put in RM, moving Arc cost from 102 to 81, and now sustain without any difficulty at all.

For the record, I think EB/MoM/ZO is better than low life now, but you asked and there's an example.

You don't want mana sustain to be curse-based, and you don't want it to be mana potion based, and you don't want it to take up a big passive investment, and it shouldn't take any specialized gear like Blood Dance... In my opinion you've been spoiled by old EB/Discipline/Clarity interaction which made managing mana a mindless zero-issue for casters.

I do agree with you that casters need better defensive options. Mana is a bit clunky and could be improved. But it's not as broken as you're describing.

I think it's a little bit futile in the light of this feedback to address it one subject at a time.

The OP is discussing the culmination of all these changes and their broader effects as-well as there implementation in the game.
I think a lot of these changes where extremely healthy for the game, but the execution was flawed to say the least.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : it's quite obvious that if even one of these is addressed it would have a profound effect on the other things discussed here, a character is a culmination of a lot of factors, easing up on one factor immediately creates room for the characters growth in another section.

Lol so many feels in this post that I can relate to. When Grandmasters just came out I played a crit arcer and 1% leech on both daggers in addition to doryani belt (3% lightning leech in total) was very "playable". This new 0.2% leech thing is retarded as fuck. Melee has bloodrage, leech on jewellery/weapons in addition to leech rate.. they can still reach retarded leech numbers..such as my cycloner on warbands. Casters have no leech rate nodes so I always wondered who thought 0.2% was sufficient o.O. The new meta I play is fuck leech unless i manage to to own a 6L so I can add life leech and instead go by the philosophy "a dead mob is the safest mob"..just pure damage.

I wish the philosophy "i'm a simple man, I see boobs I press like" applied to casters. For marauder side armour + life+ regen. For ranger side Evasion life and dodge. MoM was the only true crutch casters had and when it was at the duelist end of the tree it was truly retarded. Yea cloak of defiance w/e. I could never understand what was fundamentally wrong with the ability to continuously cast skills. Poe is not turn based, you see a mob you kill it before it kills you right? ok leech was "balanced" so we can't cheese some "endgame" content, no problem there but ok now i'm not allowed to cast my skills fast enough to compensate for the changed leech? yea fuck that.

The only problem I see with mana pots is using them as a caster. Yes. As a caster that should not be your issue. Whenever I find a Replenishing Shrine I think "why the fuck isn't the normal mana regen rate?" This was in the current 1month flashback. I was doing detonate dead so was only running clarity and AA. Had 900 spare mana so went old fashioned MoM. With replenishing shrine all im thinking is "wow this could be a viable defence" but once the shrine wore off "yea this is shit". But unfortunately ES isn't that much better as in the case of hybrid gameplay. The current EB/MoM/AA playstyle is NOT shit. However..it only works if u dont use a skill that is cast rapidly, in other words for arc and other skills it can get pretty annoying as in the case when are be barraged with hits and literally can't attack unless u had enough souls for vaal discipline.

As a caster CI is another option but it poses new problems. Level 4 enlighten because no more reduced mana lawl. Many aura nodes so you can run auras besides discipline + have enough left to cast your skill ZzzzZzzz. Another problem is gear crafting. a 600ev or ar helm both with 100 life combined is far cheaper than a [300-400]es helm counterpart. Add life/chaos res to that for hybrid gameplay for the average player (which constitutes most of poe) yea might have better luck respeccing than affording that.

So yes, for the most part I agree with the OP but I do think that some core caster items need to be rebalanced in light of these changes.. lets face it some spells are abysmal as non crit with the current setup most FIVE LINKED skills are unusable with voidbringers..

Planning a build for Darkshrines and all im thinking is welp how am I gonna colour a coil with 4 off colours and afford a taste of hate, seeing as my defensive options as a caster are very limited and i wanted to go beyond 80 map upper limit on last 1 month.

these 'issues' is a result of GGG a) increasing monster density close to the insanity levels thus forcing 'spam'. CB and OB density levels were far lower b) players greed.

each time i read that 'mana is not worth it' i know that it is the greed that talks. how can anyone say that 'mana' is not worth it when that 'mana' is the thing that makes entire build work? people once given an option to forgo something (like mana sustain with old EB) will (psychologically proven) will treat that thing as never needed.

it is ggg's 'managing expectations' skill that failed. for TOO LONG mana was not an issue (one leech affix 'solved' it for attackers, EB for casters) and people got used to this notion that it is FREE and it is their god given right to spam 6L spells without a sweat nor effort. well.. maybe it isnt? maybe it is time to start checking that 'mana multiplier' value (im pretty sure most people DO NOT EVEN THINK about this value when selecting support gems - and this is a clear sign that they want it free and want it now)

the ONE and ONLY mana problem is the 'players have no mana regen' map affix. this is BS for mana builds and should GO and GO immediately. other than that - it is fine.

people should start to appreciate the resource that allows them to play in the first place - it was a free ride for far too long

or remove the mana altogether and limit the spells/skills just by links alone - because it seems that it is what the 'people demand': dumbed down system in a pretend-to-be-hardcore game. i hope it wont happen

want 6L spam? pay for it.


for the general health of the game it is the BM gem that should go - slowing clear speed and race to 100 much much better than artificial map drop changes and making people actually think about the stuff they do. currently is a simple 'got more links? plug more damage there.' pretty non-complex if you ask me. in real life good things come with a price. why people think that it should not apply here?

'gas is just not worth it' (says POE player after realizing that his new F430 drinks in excess of 60L/100)

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

3/4 of my guild only play spell casters, they will NOT play attack builds no matter how you try and force them to.
They all quit the game early in 2.0 because its a complete shambles, hardly any came back for the month race, if they come back to the next 3 month league and all youve done is change how poison works and havent cleaned up the mess of casters Im scared they wont be back for the league after that, or any league ever again. You cant afford to dabble, mess things up and then just walk away with the live realm.

I think this is an vastly understated anecdote. When a big old Collateral Damage Patch (yes, I've decided to rename "Balance Patches") comes along and your builds get dumpstered, the builds you really want to play can end up feeling terrible.
One thing I wasn't consciously aware of until the 1 Month Flashback Event was my personal trend of taking the Path of Least Resistance (should be a serious candidate for the name of the next expansion). Looking back over the every challenge league since Domination/Nemesis I've been making builds that increasingly conform to the current metagame (obviously not entirely against my wishes? :/ ). Another scary anecdote is my total wealth generation in said leagues can be modelled on an exponential curve, yes, exponential. Of course there are many additional factors at play, but the competitive edge you gain by taking paths of least resistance is just so strong. I spent ~1.5ex gearing my 1msc char and farmed up close to 30ex in the first few days, pretty much unachievable if playing "off-meta".
This is not healthy.
Conform or die/quit.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Im genuinely concerned for the future of this game and the way you guys treat the game like an in development internal test model. I made a decision to buy a vaal supporter pack next time I get paid a little while ago, because I think even for the game up to 2.0 you deserve it. but I have to be honest, if i was looking at it as supporting the future of this game rather than paying you for a game already played, Im not sure I would be buying it. Id be in 2 minds because it seems uncertain where poe is going right now, if you understand things are not right or if you think its fine as it is.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Im talking about what is healthy for overall trends in the game and what paths offer the potential to actually make really good, serious endgame characters that are worthy of investing 100s of hours and 100s of exalts into.

This was all hugely relevant back in 1.3 when referring to what we thought would be 1.4, then 2.0 + Act 4 came along and were a strong delaying tactic but the root of the problem still very much remains.
Sadly I also look at all my support as for a game already played. Supporting the future of POE is something I am absolutely not interested in pending the Manifesto post(s) on Game Balance and/or Build Diversity.

To conclude; the game state is far too volatile and forced meta shifts got fucking old the first time. Refugee player base unsustainable.