Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

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MrTremere wrote:

Well, I did emit the suggestion to have characters incapable of going back in instances where they died in (maybe make this account wide to avoid players bringing in their second character just to finish the map), rather than make them lose huge chunks of time.

Sure, this way, theoretically any character can get to level 100, but it's ridiculous to think they could do so while dying often.

You can of course mix the experience loss with it, but it should be reworked so as to not penalize players for huge amounts of time. Maybe [(100-CharLevel)/2]%?

They should just increase the xp loss to 30%, honestly. 100 is already a joke, your suggestion would be quite hilarious if implemented.

+1 *slow clap with little tears in my eys*

wonderful... perfectly discribed my feeling...

i love to experiment with builds of my own...

on the other hand i always loose intrest in my builds around level ~80 because of the above reasons...

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toyotatundra wrote:

They should just increase the xp loss to 30%, honestly. 100 is already a joke, your suggestion would be quite hilarious if implemented.

Why don't you just play hardcore? We all have reasons why we do not play hardcore, mine is that the connection I have is too shitty. If you want more punishment on death, hardcore was made for you (also has other benefits I've been told).

I mean... honestly, how often have you died out of desync? Just yesterday, it happened four times to me.

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MrTremere wrote:

Well, I did emit the suggestion to have characters incapable of going back in instances where they died in (maybe make this account wide to avoid players bringing in their second character just to finish the map), rather than make them lose huge chunks of time.

Sure, this way, theoretically any character can get to level 100, but it's ridiculous to think they could do so while dying often.

You can of course mix the experience loss with it, but it should be reworked so as to not penalize players for huge amounts of time. Maybe [(100-CharLevel)/2]%?




goetzjam... Just... no.
Please, at least try to understand that when a game forces someone to redo days of grinding because of a little mistake (like, lacking vigilance for a second, or even simply trying content with xp in the bar), it really starts looking like a job, rather than a game.
It's been said an awful lot already, but pushing players to simply skip any content that could put their character in any kind of danger simply isn't good design.

"days of grinding" Please tell me how its days of grinding? What level character are you at where it takes "days" to level back up to where you were when you died once?

If it feels more like a job then a game, then stop playing, the XP penalty is there to serve a purpose, which has been stated many times before.


Players rarely skip content because of the death penalty in SC, the only content that is being skipped is stuff like piety in 76 map. Or bosses that are incredibly difficult for various builds that aren't geared\suited to the challenge. Honestly, the death penalty in SC is all but a joke when you think about it, you lose a fraction of what you gain during that time.


Lets take a look here. You play for XX amount of hours per night, out of that time you do various activities, map, trade, ect. So you gain:

XP (which you can lose to a certain point)
Currency (which doesn't get lost, maybe if you have to buy maps it cost currency for XP)
Maps (similar as currency)
Items (similar as the others)


So when XP is literally the only thing a SC player can lose, why on earth should that be removed or adjusted in a way where the HC\SC players are playing a vastly different game? Can't you and others see that this game is NOT designed to be a casual roll your face on the keyboard style ARPG like D3, but rather a hardcore ARPG that has a non perm death league for players with less time\patience\connection issues, ect?

That is the largest reason why this discussion and any discussions on the XP penalty doesn't matter, GGG said the penalty is fine, it is. 1/2 the players complaing about this DONT EVEN HAVE A LEVEL 90 character, which means they are also deing to stuff COMPLETELY in their control.


@Char1983

You constantly complaining about this really isn't helping, you admited yourself you aren't whilling to do anything different from an ISP\connection standpoint, when its CLEARLY a connection issue you are having. GGG shouldn't\cannot cater to people that have connection issues like yourself, they shouldn't design the game or change the design of the game for people unwhilling to change or do anything to improve their situation.

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goetzjam wrote:

@Char1983

You constantly complaining about this really isn't helping, you admited yourself you aren't whilling to do anything different from an ISP\connection standpoint, when its CLEARLY a connection issue you are having. GGG shouldn't\cannot cater to people that have connection issues like yourself, they shouldn't design the game or change the design of the game for people unwhilling to change or do anything to improve their situation.

I am not unwilling to do anything. I am just unwilling to do the only thing that would help: Move to another continent. Everyone I know in Santiago has problems with their internet connection, and I am not going to be the one to solve that problem. Have you ever lived in South America?

Again, what is the problem with

a) writing code that detects heavy desync and doesnt apply the death penalty if it occurs
b) making the time of no communication needed until you loose connection (currently 6s as far as I know) adjustable?


Specifically b) would most likely be very easy to implement and would help me (and others) a lot. Neither a) nor b) change the design of the game.


EDIT: BTW things I have tried so far include playing the game on various different internet connections, asking a friend to check if the game behaves the same for her (it does) and trying the new Brazilian server. None of that helps.

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goetzjam wrote:

Players rarely skip content because of the death penalty in SC, the only content that is being skipped is stuff like piety in 76 map. Or bosses that are incredibly difficult for various builds that aren't geared\suited to the challenge. Honestly, the death penalty in SC is all but a joke when you think about it, you lose a fraction of what you gain during that time.

I strongly disagree with this paragraph. I and every single friend I have mapped with in Standard skip a lot of stuff - most bosses with separate rooms, for instance (because those tend to be tougher) when there's any kind of damage mod in a map. Many, many map mods are just rolled away instantly - frankly, that last issue is one of the reasons I prefer to play blue maps.

No, our builds don't suck - some of my friends play metagamed HC builds - it's just not worth the risk of even a 10% chance of dying to a frustrating boss. Tons of people claim to be able to faceroll any content and any map mods in any map. Good for them. They're nobody I know in the actual game, and the builds they advertise seem extremely boring to me.

And regarding the time it takes to gain 10% back - at level 94 it takes several hours, which can be days if you're only playing a few hours a day or want to actually play some other character for a while. (I say "only," but doing anything for 2 hours every day is a HUGE time commitment in the real world. But I digress.)

Now, that doesn't mean I'm arguing for the elimination of the exp penalty - read my other posts on the subject and you'll see that I'm not - but it does mean it's a legitimate complaint. As I've said elsewhere, though, I think the root of the problem really lies in balance issues and not the penalty itself. If less builds were OP but more builds were "viable," GGG could balance content accordingly - and there would be less 1-shot deaths for unique, non-cookie-cutter HC builds. I know that's a vague and overly simple statement, but it's also the truth. The stratification of builds that has led to some being nearly indestructible has also led to a situation where the rest seem to die commonly.

Another way to approach the problem would be to redesign the difficulty curve so that the toughest content gave way more exp. Coming hand-in-hand with build balance, theoretically players would be dying more or less to the same enemies or maps, and exp in those places could actually be buffed. If the enemies were buffed, too, there would be more deaths but also more exp gain. Now, this would only work in a SC setting and only if there was a way to stop players from farming high exp enemies their particular builds didn't have a problem with. For those reasons, this is probably not a realistic solution (just throwing the concept out there, though).

Anyway, I just think the entire process of endgame leveling and how it feels to the players could be rethought. A tedious grind can be somewhat alleviated by the feeling of constant progress, but it's made much worse when you're "chasing" lost exp all the time.

Now I expect "git gud and never die" responses, which totally ignore the fact that the possibility of never dying is precisely the problem (in SC anyway; shows how tough it is to balance HC and SC leagues at the same time).

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I only have a few hours to spend on the game every day, which is already more than I should be playing. With a level 90 witch, and multiple hours lost at any death, yes, it can take me quite a while to get back to the level of experience I had before that death.

So GGG needs to cater to players and change the design of the game for "casual" players like yourself, when the whole idea of creating PoE was to create a hardcore like D2 inspired ARPG game, the only reason there is a SC league at all is some people absolutely will not play in a HC setting, but the principles of the game don't have to change just because they decided to add a non perm death league.

A few hours is probably what most average players can play, but if your level 90 and you are constantly losing XP rather then gaining, either you aren't doing the content suited to your level or quite frankly your build sucks because you are dying multiple times in that time period, in either case @demon's response actually fits quite nicely in. GGG tries to balance SC\HC at the same time, which creates this feeling that SC players need to play like HC players, while I actually agree they should play the game the same way, it is after all same game, the option does exists to play a bit more "yolo" in SC if you like, granted progression will be slower or feel slower if you die.

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Yes they do, and this has been said multiple times by different people already.

If they are then you have to ask yourself why? Players in HC can get to level 100 easier then any previous league before, multiple things have made this possible, but the game is the same in HC\SC, if not almost always "easier" in SC, for example no tempest mods to worry about bricking your map or making it extremely deadly.

If players are having a difficult time and TRULY want to progress, the best way is either play solo and observe all the ground effects\ect. Or play in a party, in mumble, ideally with a support character that does multiple curses on hit, like whispering ice.

If players are skipping bosses, then the changes GGG made to the map drop bonus on bosses actually makes sense, why should you be rewarded for skipping content, why can you even complain about losing XP when you are losing map drops, boss loots and more by skipping the boss? I find it pretty funny people are complaining about losing progress but aren't taking advantage of all the map has to offer.

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I'll acknowledge that the time isn't completely wasted

But the argument most people make on this is they are gaining nothing, that simply isn't true. As you have said you still are gaining something, just not what you want, therefore you blame a system instead of a design like the buffed monster physical damage. I think the issue is more to do with balance then it is with the penalty, which is why I don't and won't support a reduction from its current level.

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The thing is, we players lobbying for a revision of the death penalty system ARE willing to acknowledge a lot of stuff. Like, the game is meant to be hardcore. But the game should then be pushing me towards experimenting the challenging stuff in order to become capable of defeating it, rather than flee it any chance I get.

I think the encounters that are flee at first sight are really rare. You don't run into them very often or if you do, you can plan or adjust to them. Like having a fire res flask for magnus or planning for specific boss fights with topaz flask.

I think the game has gotten difficult enough to really merit the use of a support character, from a safety and a "ease" of content progression. Whispering ice seems to do well, but you can do others as well.

Ultimately progression shouldn't be guaranteed thing, if it was then it becomes stale as everyone then gets it and ultimately the game has to be balanced around it too. Getting to 100 should be a challenge, I'd argue getting to 90 is pretty easy in the current form of PoE, those last 10 skill points, while nice, don't make or break a build usually, therefore any effort to directly increase these last few levels just makes the system cheaper.

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Yes, GGG did provide satisfactory argumentation about this. <= Check the link.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1207788

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1) I do have a level 90 character.
2) People without level 90 characters are clearly incapable of knowing what hard is. <= Check the link.

You do have a level 90 character, I have many characters over level 90. The simple fact of the matter is people that are complaining about the penalty don't even reach a point in a build where they have made a successful character, so by lowering or changing the penalty it simple rewards bad players with something they shouldn't get.

Clearly you like your ad hominems and your fallacys, it doesn't really matter though. The methods to reach level 100 are available to players in both SC\HC if they choose not to do\use them that isn't a fault of the death penalty, its the fault of the stubbornness of the player.

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I'd most of all like GGG to admit that there is an issue. They don't have to actually find a solution (especially if there is none), but it is important that the complaint be regarded as legitimate, rather than just another worthless whining.

There isn't an issue with the death penalty, there is an issue with spiky and unwarranted damage. This is literally the largest issue regarding whining in PoE and it really needs to fucking stop. It has to be annoying beyond belief to read comments about people crying that they aren't progressing when doing nothing different themselves.

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Finally, and I'll be repeating myself on this one, but it is a very important thing to keep in mind :
The way the penalty is perceived is even more important than the penalty itself.
This means that there are other things to look at than just the maths of the penalty.
Or, put another way :
a - b = c is mathematically equivalent to a = b + c , but by being phrased differently can lead to different trains of thought. The same is true for the death penalty.

But ultimately does it matter, if a player is losing the same in the end, the perception, while important doesn't matter if the end result is the same. This is similar to the dude that wanted a whole new system for bandit rewards, its the same thing with a different cost that takes tons of work to do. Work that can be put forth on stuff that actually matters, more importantly matters to a larger amount of players.

I don't support the change of the current death penalty in any shape\form\fashion. I don't feel any arguments have been made on this discussion to change this for me. Players ultimately have the control of their character, build and other factors and refusing to change or adapt your build\character\playstyle to progress is a character failure, not a bad game design.

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goetzjam wrote:

If players are having a difficult time and TRULY want to progress, the best way is either play solo and observe all the ground effects\ect. Or play in a party, in mumble, ideally with a support character that does multiple curses on hit, like whispering ice.

Nah. If you really want to progress (fast), the most efficient option is to flip currency, chain blue lvl 78 maps and buy new ones if you run out. Its just pretty boring.

I am as likely to die in a lvl 75 map as I am likely to die in a lvl 78 map. So I better don't run 75s cause the relative penalty (compared to the amouht of XP I earn) is much higher there.