Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

Like some people already mentioned, the penalty fails to penalize what it's supposed to and is overall clunky because it gets amplified by all the other issues the game has.

The game has too many balance issues and poorly thought-out mechanics as well as general engine issues such as low vision range, speed of everything, visual effects, etc.
All of which combined, brings us the marvelous oneshots or deaths in a fraction of a second to something you only notice after you've died.

It doesn't add any challenge, anyone can just run maps with safe mods and avoid bullshit overtuned bosses, thus never dying. All it does is remove fun because you're penalized for trying stuff outside of the "safe zone", stuff that isn't even rewarding in most of cases to warrant the risk.

I can't believe we're in 2016 and there's still a thread on this topic. If it hasn't been changed in the last 5 years while all arguments for and against have been made over and over, I think it's safe to assume that it won't be changed ever. Live with it.

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Raudram wrote:

Like some people already mentioned, the penalty fails to penalize what it's supposed to and is overall clunky because it gets amplified by all the other issues the game has.

The game has too many balance issues and poorly thought-out mechanics as well as general engine issues such as low vision range, speed of everything, visual effects, etc.
All of which combined, brings us the marvelous oneshots or deaths in a fraction of a second to something you only notice after you've died.

It doesn't add any challenge, anyone can just run maps with safe mods and avoid bullshit overtuned bosses, thus never dying. All it does is remove fun because you're penalized for trying stuff outside of the "safe zone", stuff that isn't even rewarding in most of cases to warrant the risk.

You haven't read a damn thing in this thread of you are still spouting out this bullshit.


First and foremost, if you think the penalty isn't ok because of "issues" with the game, that isn't an acceptable reason to change, performance issues, lag spikes, spike damage, ect are all part of the game in both hardcore and softcore, if not only your peers in SC can deal with it and get to 100, but players in HC can get to 100, then obviously there is another reason and these ones can stop being used as "scape goats"


You can run safe maps, but whats the point of that? Safe maps don't really net returns you are paying for maps from someone that doesn't just run safe maps and gets better returns then. As for avoiding bosses, there really is only a handful of ones that are avoided by most of my hardcore characters, that number gets vastly reduced if I have a support character with me. Not to mention I don't have the liberty of a death here and there and still keep my gear and character where I want to play it. You do, so its far less punishing, but still challenging at the same time. Not only that if you only run safe maps either you are doing 3 mod rares, trans+alt+regal an hoping on returns or chaos spamming maps that others just do, it literally is costing people currency to play "like a bitch"

As for removing the fun, you obviously aren't a hardcore player. Some of the most fun shit in this game IMO has been taking a map or challenge and turning it into ridiculousness. Chain, -max, beyond, added damage as XX with a couple other mods (100 quant map, with 15-30ish packsize) and then double beyond it.

One arid lake map we spawned every single beyond boss, including abaxoth. Another one (unfor I missed out on) spawned a total of 18 bosses, but they didn't get abaxoth. The most recent one we did was a double beyond courtyard, unfort. the packsize was less then ideal, but the quant was super high. We got a few bosses, thanks to boxes and perandus chest.

If all you care about is XP and aren't willing to ever risk your character, this game wasn't designed for you. GGG made this clear when they changed the maps from packsize being a roll you could put on a map, to a roll that is rewarded with various mods instead. GGG wants people to run rare maps, vaal higher maps for 8 mods, and if any recent indication is true, they want people to use zana mods on basically every map as well (t10-11+) All of those things together indicates that you should be challenging your build, whats the purpose of leveling and playing a build, if your only going to play it to "try" and get 100.


Its the best penalty for a game that is already complicated enough. Could something be improved upon this, probably, would it overall be more difficult to understand as a result, probably.

Try and pretend like you want to have fun in this game and push yourself, instead of thinking this game is d3.

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I can't believe we're in 2016 and there's still a thread on this topic. If it hasn't been changed in the last 5 years while all arguments for and against have been made over and over, I think it's safe to assume that it won't be changed ever. Live with it.

Well they did reduce it from 15>10. But they also did comment on the q\a a while ago that they felt the penalty was fine.

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Dawmz wrote:

I can't believe we're in 2016 and there's still a thread on this topic. If it hasn't been changed in the last 5 years while all arguments for and against have been made over and over, I think it's safe to assume that it won't be changed ever. Live with it.

I really hope so also. A PoE community arent any differend what i have seen in other multiple games where either people requesting nerfs to a area,a nerf that specific thing because people doesnt wanna try to bypass a mechanism and rather keep want a content would be such pipeline rush to keep as ''interesting'', or death penalties are too much (i need run from so long distance, or i have to wait few seconds because i keep dying as it add a penalty, or even lose a small amount progress of it while compared another aspect where everything is gone if done same mistakes).
I may be wrong and this is my opinion that a some games are ''destroyed'' by these requests in a years by change a game itself for more mindless whacking either is it WoW, D3 and list can go on. A character has made far too powerful also compared most in a games or atmosphere by fightning by two differnd faction is melt it ''together'' wich is surely in my mind game killer move in a mmorpg is a base story is opposite.(mostly mmorpg).
when it comes to arguement ''it should be fun, and not feel like working for it''. Ofcourse people can have a picture wich is fun a differend by others, but removing excample a ''challenge'' by tune down a mechanisms or just monsters compared to level where your own character kills them like a flies its not fun as for a people who prefer to do something againt a achievements or obtain something rare. Same goes to a travelling in a mmorpg where definely flying was a bad for a WoW in my mind. It totally gave ability to bypass a whole game content (i understand a certain raid/dungeon entraces as in a sky) but still its like giving a flying ability in a sport game like football and bypass a opponent defenses. Also i consider it as a ''job'' if i do benefit a real money for doing it and not by my own choice stay playing a game hours in a certain days or wich ever i schedule it. Same did go with a mmorpg in a RAID enviroments.
Even PoE, D3 did take a step on this by making a start easier in early chapters. It was fun to found that lets brutus in a very first encounter.. ''holy ash... it does hit hard'', and this is just a excample. I also agree with a point that ''1 shot mechanism'' aint actually fair nice mechanisms in a game. I may understand in a mmorpg but stil its not a same then a monsters/bosses are tuned to do a certain amount a damage but wich gives ''' oh damn moments..'' or a certain bosses are a little bit more tough compared a rest of a map so its like a certain requirement that you have a chance to bypass.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Dying endgame means one of three things.

1- Your build sucks.

2- Your gear sucks.

3- You suck.

Or

4) None of the above, but your internet connection sucks / the servers have problems / you entered a map with a COC character.

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goetzjam wrote:

If you can die to reflect from 2 screens away, then you can die to reflect in less then a screen away, which means something is fundamentally wrong with your build. Please tell me how you live in cases of reflect in which you can "prepare for" but ones you can't with your specific build, because based on just the very limited stuff you've said here either you don't live to reflect regardless or you do but have to prepare for it in ways that aren't "reasonable"

Not sure about his build, but a lot of characters can easily avoid death from reflect by popping a Vessel of Vinktar once they see a reflect mob. If you do not see it, it gets hard to pop one, though, unless you have a legacy one and can get to 100% up-time.

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goetzjam wrote:

You haven't read a damn thing in this thread of you are still spouting out this bullshit.

Please get some discussion culture instead of randomly insulting people.

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goetzjam wrote:

lot of words

You're missing the point. Unlike in other similar games, the difference between builds, gear and "difficulty" of content is simply abysmal in PoE, it's day and night, usually with no middle ground in between. Of course everything seems ok when you're running a build that's proven to work with little effort and investment. Those are exactly the builds that keep you inside the safe zone, but unlike in other games, PoE offers A LOT more options and possibilities as far as character building and gearing goes, which is then penalized and pigeonholed with mechanics that those safe builds can just bruteforce though, but most of builds find them mortal. This is a clear case of binary difficulty, which is aggravated by the fact that the extremes in this game are very far apart.

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Raudram wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

lot of words

You're missing the point. Unlike in other similar games, the difference between builds, gear and "difficulty" of content is simply abysmal in PoE, it's day and night, usually with no middle ground in between. Of course everything seems ok when you're running a build that's proven to work with little effort and investment. Those are exactly the builds that keep you inside the safe zone, but unlike in other games, PoE offers A LOT more options and possibilities as far as character building and gearing goes, which is then penalized and pigeonholed with mechanics that those safe builds can just bruteforce though, but most of builds find them mortal. This is a clear case of binary difficulty, which is aggravated by the fact that the extremes in this game are very far apart.

The difficulty scales, not only that the possible mods on maps do as well, it only gets to a certain point where your character might not easily outscale the possible mods that you begin to have an issue, even more so if you make more mistakes then not.

That being said it really has never been easier to get to level 90 on like any build. You can do so without touching red maps or even the higher end of yellow maps, assuming of course you don't just run it and die every time.


The thing is your point has very little to do with the XP penalty, but rather more of the difficult that is provided by map mods. If PoE was a more attrition based ARPG game where you had to build characters differently and where lets say you had access to higher content outside of maps (not all the way up to 80+ zones, but something closer to that) then the game would be different and the penalty would be as well. But you can't really argue in an XP loss thread that the penalty is bad because of the lack of zones outside of maps, thats a completely different issue.


In terms of offering tons of options, that is true, more options now then before, that doesn't mean all the options are good or all are viable for all content. For example I want to make a vaal righteous fire build, but I'm still trying to figure out (theory crafting wise) how to make it anything other then just a boss killer. I've got another build which sole purpose is to test out mechanics, its not finished yet (due to bug with item) but when it does it will be able to provide some insight to things I want.


IMO your time, if you think this is what plagues the game the worst, is better spent on trying to either introduce an alternative to maps, that are maybe less rewarding in loot and XP, but allow for progression. Don't know if a higher level lab would do it for you or something else, but you can't just point to the map system and its design and say XP penalty needs changed because of that, when it works for so many others.

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Not sure about his build, but a lot of characters can easily avoid death from reflect by popping a Vessel of Vinktar once they see a reflect mob. If you do not see it, it gets hard to pop one, though, unless you have a legacy one and can get to 100% up-time.

And if they are killing things 2 screens away, then they aren't properly built for the challenge. They likely need vaal pact, reflect ring or whatever other mechanics that are available. Does it suck that reflect only has a few options in order to deal with it, sure, but it doesn't mean the penalty needs adjusted for it, people need to build better for it. This is coming from a HC player, playing deadeye with farshot and uses multiple tools to hopefully not ever die to reflect. I even play with a support sometimes that increases my damage, which should increase the danger of reflect, but it hasn't been a large issue, even with -max, which means the whole idea that vinktar is saving people is a lie, unless they are using legacy one and if so they likely aren't using other tools and just "planning" on popping a pot before reflect, which isn't a reliable counter.

Hey, I wasn't arguing for the removal of it, just that it doesn't really serve any real purpose and doesn't make the game more challenging, it's just a mere aggravating third wheel due to the current state of the game.

People aren't going to just magically remake their whole build and purchase a new set of gear to deal with a specific stupid mechanic or overtuned boss, they will just skip them, which in the end doesn't add any challenge or make people "improve", because it isn't about either but rather binary gear/build checks in most cases.

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Raudram wrote:

Hey, I wasn't arguing for the removal of it, just that it doesn't really serve any real purpose and doesn't make the game more challenging, it's just a mere aggravating third wheel due to the current state of the game.

People aren't going to just magically remake their whole build and purchase a new set of gear to deal with a specific stupid mechanic or overtuned boss, they will just skip them, which in the end doesn't add any challenge or make people "improve", because it isn't about either but rather binary gear/build checks in most cases.

Skipping has its cost, even if the XP penalty doesn't force any purpose that is clear, it being there prevents people from zerging content that care about progression. In terms of being aggravating of course it is there for that purpose, if you felt like you had nothing to lose you have very little left to play for.