Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion
" You'll be the second one : I'll be much quicker than you. :-P " Once again we have vastly diverging points of view. Lockstep removing all issues is a false promise that certainly isn't true. Sure, the issues will be reduced, but a part of them will simply be moved (lag instead of desync). Plus, many players label all their issues as "desync" because it's the only word they see on the forums. There's issues with the game freezing in several different situations, for example. I'll add that there may be more to look at than the penalty itself. Dealing the same penalty, but having it look different can change lots of things. As an extreme example, take the current penalty, and compare it with the same penalty, but having a "You died, noob. You suck." message in addition, and you'll see many more players quitting in the second case, because you're adding insult to the injury. This is something very important to understand, as this means the way you deliver the penalty may be even more important than the penalty itself. Seeing a completion bar getting back a few pixels hurts more than seeing an amount of required xp go up, for example. |
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" Hehee.. last post before bed. FUN is what I want from game, not those last 7 or so skillpoints. Even people voiced against the removal of death penalty did that because they found it more fun that way under their viewpoint. Simply put: Death Penalty is NO FUN. (at least to me) At times, I just want to mindlessly or pointlessly smash around in the virtual realm. Don't remind me of any ladder, building skill and such. I am sorry but I am such kind of a player. And prolly some others too. MrTremere, are you with me? :) Last edited by Grugabara#3595 on Jun 3, 2015, 2:13:22 PM
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" Death penality wasn't designed to be fun it was designed to put meaning into deing to either force a player to play differently (aka a better balanced character) or reroll and try something else. If those last 7 skill points don't matter to you then death penalty provides nothing negative for your character, right? @MrT Here is the great thing about disagreeing with someone is that differences will happen based off of player's wants, desires, experiences ect. Like I said before it is up to the game dev in this case to read the feedback and act\not act on it, depending on it it fits their design goal and ideas for the game. Lockstep promise isn't only that, its everything that comes with it. You cannot sit there and honestly think that it doesn't change the argument or the argument significantly with the new method, current improvements and other improvements (like visuals, ect). For example if a player is experiencing "video lag" because of XX cancer build that does whatever amount of flashes per second, why would you remove or reduce the penalty because of that? Address the issue first, don't bandaid a symptom because of it. The message of "you died, you suck" is stated too many times, I will agree with that, but 10% penalty isn't even punishing until higher levels, I've gone over this part many times before in this thread and the other, if requested I can repeat it. This argument can be applied to the whole concept that many people think GGG needs to compromise on every complaint or "large" issue people have. For example this isn't the first time it has been discussed, actually like I've mentioned they have already reduced it and made (and will make, aka lockstep) more changes to reduce the penality in ways that isn't directly 10>5 or whatever. If GGG constantly compromises on "large" issues the game becomes much more casual, I don't say this to be a negative term, I say this as a the literal meaning of the word. So 2 years ago (not sure exactly) this discussion already happened and GGG reduced it, now 2 years later we are having the same discussion, even with all the changes that have happened and will happen people still are pressing to "compromise" Lets say GGG budges and reduces it to 7.5, not that they would Chris just said a few months ago they are happy with XP penalty, 2 years from now people will be pushing to "compromise" again, and again and again. It literally never ends and the ones hurt the most about "casual" changes are the ones that have supported the original game idea and concepts, the ones that if it weren't for them the game wouldn't of been "successful" So I hate the idea of conforming to the need to "compromise" Issues like splitting player base, creating automation, or any change that is more then a "rebalance" and can have significant repercussions need to be approached with extreme caution. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285 FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. Last edited by goetzjam#3084 on Jun 3, 2015, 3:04:18 PM
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This isn't so much about the 7 points as it is about a logical objective. Level 100 is where a character is "complete". Sure, there is still best in slot equipment and a few secondary objectives, but I believe it to be the objective that sticks to most players' minds, even though the last few points hardly make any difference in the build. I guess that if they made it so you can level beyond level 100 (forever), then this objective would disappear from a lot of minds.
2 things : + Unless the developers are gods, there is no way they will ever be able to remove all technical issues the game may have that hinder the gameplay on certain occasions. + If it pleases you, you can read all my arguments as "I suck" (the penalty makes me avoid playing with Carnecaldo, even at his "low" level), which doesn't remove the main point : regressing in a game about progression is something frustrating to a lot of players. Nobody wants to log in, play a little, make a stupid mistake, then see they have less progress than they did when they started the playing session. This simply leads to rage quits. A good link I hope devs take a look at (actually, there's a lot of stuff that's very interesting for developers on that channel, I hope some of them already know it or get to look at it in the future). Please, Goetz, don't go on "slippery slope" arguments. These are bad for discussing things seriously. Whenever I talk to someone who acts completely impermeable to any kind of arguments, I tend to shut myself to incoming arguments too. Everybody does. Once again, I am not advocating for a specific change. I am advocating for something that caters to everyone, not just "hardcore" players or "casual" players. Maybe there needs to be a penalty dependant on how active you are, so that casual players, that aren't going for the competitive stuff, can get to take it easy, while more active players have to be more careful while levelling. Or maybe experience shouldn't roll back beyond what it was X amount of time ago (weekly saves?). I'm sure there are lots of interesting ways to conciliate casual and hardcore gameplays, but if we are too scared of going D3-casual to make any change, then at some point the game will lose its casual population. |
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"technical issues" are a part of any game, if they are being removed or reduced, then why would the effect like XP penality need to be as well? Again, this is a prime example where people cannot wait to see how changes will effect the situation. Act 4 significantly changes many aspecs of this conversation and GGG just said they were ok with the penality, yet here you, the other dude and I are talking about it? Why? Why can this topic NOT wait until after Act 4. They aren't going to reduce the penalty when they just said it was fine and are patching the #1 issue\excuse people used to get it reduced. " Maybe they are bad, maybe they aren't but you cannot say that statement if false, constantly decreasing something because players, especially a minory are on here avocating for it, would be a terrible move by GGG. " How so, you specifically said you would join him in that new league, if anything you are advocating for at least 1 specific change. Any time based penality is terrible IMO because it actually encourages less participation or playing during a period of time. Not to mention your solution isn't black and white, the current system is easy to understand, you die you lose % of XP. The complexity of the game should come from builds, gems, actual gameplay elements not from this "balance game design aspect" " To be fair the whole game shouldn't have constant significant changes to cater to casual players. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285 FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. Last edited by goetzjam#3084 on Jun 3, 2015, 3:43:30 PM
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Maybe if GGG really wanted to change XP loss they could give you a choice. On the death notice screen add a button for "full" resurrection which would be a no xp loss res. Full res though might cost you something like 1 chaos per 2 levels so you would have to choose which to lose, the orbs or the xp.
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Another Thread about the Exp Pen and i will go ahead and put my money on this one reaching atleast 50 pages as well! I mean its obvious that the Exp Penalty is a subject that many find to be a great burden on the lvling Exp in POE in general! And i must admit this game is like no other in that regard!
In most games you lvl until you reach a cap! (In POE that would be 100) But also in most games ALOT of the endgame content isnt even accessible until you reach that cap! And then from there you begin to perfect your maxed lvl build to complete the endgame content! In POE however Endgame content which is pretty much Maps, Atziri, and some of the Unique maps and can be started anytime you wish once you reach atleast the end of Solaris in act 3! And you are not restricted from any of such content by simply your lvl of your character but rather your gear and build you choose to run! And as such GGG has designed the game to not center its endgame around lvl cap but instead allow endgame once the story line is mostly complete and go from there as far as you can reasonably take your build until you either get to a point where the grind is too much or you group up and grind to 100 or simply reroll! Thus why this games HC works so well for it since you dont have to worry about reaching a lvl cap just to begin endgame! You just go as far as you can till you die! Which works very well with POE's HC i might add! And since the Endgame content isnt centered around lvl cap that means 100 is instead ment to be the pinnical of accomplishments! Therefore things such as maps lvl stopping sustainability lower than your possible lvl cap as well as the flat exp penalty is put in place to make 100 an even harder accomplishment! Now this system is quite unique to POE and while it is an interesting mechanic and system it does ofcourse have its drawbacks! main drawback being that lvl cap isnt even really considered a reasonable goal most people should even try to set on most of their builds! At the same time the content is also tuned to this aspect of the game meaning the content isnt even tuned for lvl 100 characters but rather to cause the player to make certain choices about how they approach any build in the game and having a complete build way before 100! Now as for the Exp Pen at this time i think people forget these things about the basic idea of POE and fail to realize that in order to do something like do away with the Exp Pen in POE you would also have to make MAJOR changes to the endgame content of POE as well to accommodate otherwise people will just grind builds up as high as they can or even cap out and then what? Thats it theres nothing really left at all for you to do! This obviously poses an issue for GGG to make such a decision because from their perspective if people run out of things to do they move on to other games! So basically without a total revamp of the endgame content as well as the way GGG approaches endgame content theres no way in POE's current iteration that GGG can lose the Exp Pen! Not without other major changes to the game to go along with doing such a thing! And since this was the Developers intention for its Endgame from the start that lvl 100 not be a goal players should be going for but rather taking your build as far as you can reasonably take it into as far into the content as you can take it! Id say that the Current Exp Penalty in contrast to that vision as well as the Endgame content POE has it is also working exactly as intended so i dont see it going anywhere anytime soon! As for my opinion on the matter... I dont so much think the Exp Pen is so much the issue as the fact that the endgame content which in this case is maps are not only so gated by RNG but once you reach the 90s is so underwhelming that even without any exp pen at all it takes so many maps rolled well which costs quite a bit of currency that it becomes way too much to even try to go all the way to 100 even if the exp pen did not even exist! It would still be something that would take most players months to even a year to do! The Exp Pen just insures that not only do only the most devoted reach 100 but the best well rounded builds as well make it to 100! I think instead of the Exp Penalty being modified i would much rather see even higher maps! it should always be about risk vs reward and instead of having to run 100s of 78 maps just to get from lvl 91 to 92 i would rather be running even harder maps than 78s that will also in turn give more exp per map because of the exp pen of the lvl difference of the content your running compared to your character lvl! I think if maps went up to atleast 84 or even as high as 86 then the Exp Penalty wouldn't be such an issue like it is now! This would also open the doors for GGG to not only add more challenging content but this could also help in terms of balance since this would change the way alot of people would map! But in any case my thought is the Exp Pen isnt the real issue but Endgame content being so low as well as the nature of POE Endgame as a whole! Im hopeful that the act 4 revamp of maps and content will help with some of these issues but i just dont see the exp pen being reworked in anyway! Nor do i think it should i think reworking other things in endgame would do more for POE than reworking the exp pen! There is a fine line between Consideration and Hesitation. The former is Wisdom, the latter is Fear. Last edited by Demonoz#1375 on Jun 3, 2015, 7:23:42 PM
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If the death penalty goes, I go too.
Don't wanna see even more dps only glass cannon builds on the high levels. Easy as that. Death penalty is great to make ppl improve their builds further and weigh out offenses and defenses well. If it goes, then poe will be even more mindless racing. Even drops and mapdrops would have to be adjusted if it goes as everyone would just play the hardest map mods in order to get best map-drop ratio and item drops as well. If you change the death penalty now, the efforts of all the people who already played to 100 with it will be discounted. Ppl will not reach lvl 100 in 3 weeks but in 2 then. The death penalty is one of best things in PoE overall. It makes groups discuss before a map if to play this or another, if rerolling would be good or it is ok. It makes players to learn the strengthes and weaknesse of their build. It makes the game tense. You have to decide if you go to the bossroom or skip. All this would get lost if the death penalty goes. Last edited by LSN#3878 on Jun 3, 2015, 10:59:08 PM
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Why would you want death to come without consequence its one of the dumbest things I've heard.
Risk/reward - meaningless Playing a tank - pointless Speccing life nodes - why? Playing carefully - time wasting My god anyone who thinks the death penalty is too mean should stay out of feedback section. P̯̹̙̥̉̏ͦͯA̠̝̰̣̯͕͚̲̭͈̥̠͑̓̿ͦ̾ͯ̍ͅͅȚ̜̦͕̞̞̠̮͎͔͙͔̺̺͉̟̿̿̏ͬ͛͋̍ͮ̌̚H̹͕͚̟͍̘̤̱̻̬͓̬̮̫̦͖̳̹ͮͨ̒̉ͮ̿̈ͪ̇̿͆ͭ̃ͭ̃ͭ̚ ̲̫̞̤͓̳͑ͬ̾͌ͯ͐͂̿͗ͨ͋͑̍͐͗̾̄O͕̮̻͔̳̠͉͖̳͖͈̻͇͈̣̙̪͈ͨ͐̒̽ͣ̋ͅF̣͎̞̞̯̝ͦ͌̆ͥ̈͐̾ͣ̔ͮ̐̀̏ͪ̚ ̟̩͙̙̩̮̻̼ͬ͑ͥͦ͗̿E̼̭̩̜͕̱̤̭̞͖̳͍̝̤̼͓̗ͩͫ̌ͬ̊̋̄͑͗̽X͕̰̪̱̲̩̙̦͓͓̯̠̤̝̝̯̣̥̀̋̌̍̚Ȉ̖̟͔̩̝̊̿ͪͅL̺͓̻̰̀͋̅ͮͧE͔̼͚͕̮̻̟̩̪̖̫̪̦͙̎̑͆̏ͨͅ
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Come on. You ask for fun your way. I ask for mine. I am not judging right or wrong. And I am not asking to demolish the current system. I just wanna probe into the possibility of creating an extra league. You are not forced to join. And you can even laugh at it.
" Because I am looking for a game; entertainment I appreciate and enjoy. You want 'consequences'? Doesn't real life give you enough? I have my fair share, thank you. :) I already admit that I am a loser. So... loser can't have even a tiny corner in the virtual world as well? Oh my! [gotta put hope upon the coming virtual-(virtual world) or virtual-virtual-virtual...] Last edited by Grugabara#3595 on Jun 4, 2015, 6:37:53 AM
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