Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

You see Kepa, I and some other people too I think, like to play certain build or toon. I hate reroling. I like to play the only one. Invest in it all I have and play. I like to kill monsters, its fun. But without getting xp for that it becomes pointless. And it kills the fun. So I need to get xp even after 95 lvl, even if the rest 5 points doesnt add much to my build. I will be bored soon with the build, perhaps not reaching it to 100 but is you see theres 2 types of players, who likes to rerol and says "you dont need to get to 100, just make it to 90 and rerol" and people like me who find reroling stupid and play till get bored with the build. But ducking desync makes hours of my xp progression pointless when I loose 10% of xp at high levels.
Havent played like 4 months already. And dont want to, untill desync is fixed, removed crap monsters like devourers or until something has done to reduce my rage when desync or crap monsters kills me, like reduced xp penalty.

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Dudoo wrote:

You see Kepa, I and some other people too I think, like to play certain build or toon. I hate reroling. I like to play the only one. Invest in it all I have and play. I like to kill monsters, its fun. But without getting xp for that it becomes pointless. And it kills the fun. So I need to get xp even after 95 lvl, even if the rest 5 points doesnt add much to my build. I will be bored soon with the build, perhaps not reaching it to 100 but is you see theres 2 types of players, who likes to rerol and says "you dont need to get to 100, just make it to 90 and rerol" and people like me who find reroling stupid and play till get bored with the build. But ducking desync makes hours of my xp progression pointless when I loose 10% of xp at high levels.
Havent played like 4 months already. And dont want to, untill desync is fixed, removed crap monsters like devourers or until something has done to reduce my rage when desync or crap monsters kills me, like reduced xp penalty.

I mean your problems are purely with how you want to perceive the penalty.

Because you technically have something to lose you won't "let loose" like you have nothing to lose, because technically you do unless you've died repeatedly.

I suspect the number of people complaining about this issue will rise by a bunch when they change cwdt, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be.

Again I have yet to see anything new on this thread worth specifically addressing, people are just +1 one way or another.

Death penalty should remain the same across all leagues, temp and perm, we don't need a reason for people to play one over another, that isn't already present.

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MrTremere wrote:

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kepa1110 wrote:

The answer is simple. Don't die. If you're a hardcore player you should easily avoid it right? and accept your penalty and lost with dignity when it happens. At least this is how I undestand what "hardcore player" means. But apparently in POE a hardcore player only means grinding the same content 24/7 again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Until your mind turns off.

If you're feeling stressed as you said when you are level >85 or whatever stop playing. Seriously. Because this is a game, not a job. It's not a bad drug. You don't need to reach level 100. My highest character is 90 and I will never going to repeat the insane amount of required stupid grinding and farming again because I'm not "hardcore" enough. Thanks god.

Here's the thing : we're not hardcore. That's why we play softcore. And as much as many of us can accept the experience loss when we make a mistake, hardly any of us can accept having the game s**tting on our efforts when there's simply been a multiple seconds screen freeze, very high desync, or whatever else that isn't a normal gameplay mechanic.


PS : Please don't bring legacy items into the discussion. Very few players actually use those.

Lol very few people use legacy items, if you are playing in standard and I mean actually playing you are using at least one legacy item, its almost unavoidable at this point.

You play in SC so that you don't lose your character completely on death, not to have no penalty. So keep that in mind before making comments like "were not in hardcore so we shouldn't be punished for death"

An ARPG without death penalty is plain and boring, plenty of games have them, but PoE is unqiue and the fact it still has one and a fair one up until ~90, at which point your character should be strong enough to survive most WTF that wasn't my fault moments, this whole "desync, devourer, crit, blah blah" unintended mechanics argument is bullshit, its in the game, those same things kill HC players as well.

I'm only going to post this once and hope the idea sticks well with the community.

There was a game I played that has the same kind of hard aspect to the game. On death you would lose 10% experience, % of skills progression, gear, and could even de-level.

There were ways to mitigate this death penalty of 10%, and reduce it down to 5% (I think). The player would go around the open world and gather five blessings given by npcs, for a cost. Each time a character died, they would have to redo the blessings.

If GGG introduced something like this I think it would help. Where a player could find a random quest in the world, much like master missions, and gain the NPC's "Blessing". This would reduce the death penalty by some percent. Depends how many they want and how they tune it.

How would you introduce this for existing masters?
I would incentivize getting master levels. Once a master reaches level 7-8 (or max), they can go on a mission to receive the master's blessing. Each blessing would be unique to the master. On top of giving a reduced death penalty it would provide some other passive abilities, to benefit Hardcore players for actually doing the mission. Not raw base stats, but maybe some increased damage, increased cast speed, increased minion ___, etc. Something unique and themed to the master.

If a Hardcore player dies, well, that's nothing new. Keep the character or reroll.
For Standard players, it reduces the time investment lost for playing the game, while not removing the penalty altogether.
For both players, it provides a passive buff they can benefit from.

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Perq wrote:

- Death penalty SHOULD NOT remain at Standard

We have legacies there anyways, so it is not like we're talking about any level of competitive thing going on on Standard. People there might as well just slowly progress to their beloved 100. This does not matter, because Standard is not balanced anyways. A lot of people would enjoy playing without the annoying bit called death penalty, and no damage would be done to competitive element, because there is no such element on Standard. There is no point keeping it there.

Totally disagree. Because the death penalty is not (only) about the competitive ladder element, but about making players learn to do better builds / play better and having a sense of risk during combat even in Std.

Removing the death penalty in Std would be another nail in the PoE casual coffin.

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Dudoo wrote:

You see Kepa, I and some other people too I think, like to play certain build or toon. I hate reroling. I like to play the only one. Invest in it all I have and play. I like to kill monsters, its fun. But without getting xp for that it becomes pointless. And it kills the fun. So I need to get xp even after 95 lvl, even if the rest 5 points doesnt add much to my build. I will be bored soon with the build, perhaps not reaching it to 100 but is you see theres 2 types of players, who likes to rerol and says "you dont need to get to 100, just make it to 90 and rerol" and people like me who find reroling stupid and play till get bored with the build. But ducking desync makes hours of my xp progression pointless when I loose 10% of xp at high levels.
Havent played like 4 months already. And dont want to, untill desync is fixed, removed crap monsters like devourers or until something has done to reduce my rage when desync or crap monsters kills me, like reduced xp penalty.

I play a self found underpowered no-unique trash build and even I haven't 'died to desync' yet.
I've died to situations I shouldn't have gone in to or didn't approach correctly (either due to derp or lack of prior information), some of which have been accentuated by desync, but none of them were due to 'desync' itself.
Every death helps me improve and die less in future.

But sure, they need to 'fix an internet phenomenon' in a free game.

Not everyone is supposed to make it to 100. If you can't spot the dangers, and spot the times when you're supposed to ping the server to sync you up (even without a macro, you can type /oos in advance then hit enter up enter when it's time to sync. Just as long as /oos was the last thing you typed; I guess that's too hard for a lot of people though), then no 100 for you.


Come on people, this is softcore not babycore. Though with all the 'whers tidal ilands' players flooding in I fear the worst...

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goetzjam wrote:

I mean your problems are purely with how you want to perceive the penalty.

Because you technically have something to lose you won't "let loose" like you have nothing to lose, because technically you do unless you've died repeatedly.

I suspect the number of people complaining about this issue will rise by a bunch when they change cwdt, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be.

Again I have yet to see anything new on this thread worth specifically addressing, people are just +1 one way or another.

Death penalty should remain the same across all leagues, temp and perm, we don't need a reason for people to play one over another, that isn't already present.

Well, to be honest, I have held that stance until I talked with friend of mine, who hates the death penalty with passion. I do think that it serves it purpose, by making level reflect (to some degree) skill of the player - you can't get level 100 if you keep on dying. BUT...

- For those who want the "death is bad" experience - we have hardcore/HC temp leagues
- For those who want the "hardcore experience", but doesn't have much time to re-roll all the time AND they want to play competitive - we have SC temp leagues
- But what about people who doesn't want the competitive element and simply want to grind some monsters, and slowly progress towards level 100?

While I mainly enjoy SC temp and HC experience, I can relate to what these people want (because of my friend). They do not care about the "hardcore" experience. They do not care if ladder is filled with level 100 characters. They just want to have their casual fun.
And to be honest, who cares about Standard ladder?

We can debate all day about the "nature of the game" or "hardcore experience", but in the end, GGG is an company who needs PLAYERS. The more players PoE gets, the easier it will be for GGG to expand the content for ALL OF US. We can have the hardcore element, semi-hardcore and casual one. You won't force people to play hardcore - they will simply get burned and move away, and probably never come back.

My friends got burned few times already, coming back only because I keep on dropping stuff like "OMG GUYS, SO MUCH NEW CONTENT NOW! YOU SHOULD GET BACK TO PoE! REALLY!", and they are like "meh... well, ok." After getting to level ~80 they start getting annoyed by the death penalty (again), and we're having this big discussion why it is bad/good, usually ending in them dropping the game for another few months. And honestly, in moments like these, I'm getting tired of PoE too.
Again, YOU WON'T FORCE PEOPLE TO BE HARDCORE. Let people play their casual thing on Standard, and maybe some day they will decide they want to go a little bit more hardcore.

Don't be blinded by your own perspective or take on the game. I know that the game is not that hard, and not dying is not that hard to get by. Some of you guys know that too. But MANY people does not, and they don't want to deal with it. I'm not saying that PoE should turn into casual title because it needs to cater to everyone, *cough*Blizzard*cough*, but we could give some space for people to get to know the game, instead of trying to force full-hardcore attitude towards games.

PoE is STILL all about temp leagues, racing, re-rolling and dying to Shared Boon Dischargers (on Bloodlines!).

Responses:

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morbo wrote:

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Perq wrote:

- Death penalty SHOULD NOT remain at Standard

We have legacies there anyways, so it is not like we're talking about any level of competitive thing going on on Standard. People there might as well just slowly progress to their beloved 100. This does not matter, because Standard is not balanced anyways. A lot of people would enjoy playing without the annoying bit called death penalty, and no damage would be done to competitive element, because there is no such element on Standard. There is no point keeping it there.

Totally disagree. Because the death penalty is not (only) about the competitive ladder element, but about making players learn to do better builds / play better and having a sense of risk during combat even in Std.

Removing the death penalty in Std would be another nail in the PoE casual coffin.

That is total nonsense. You are known for spewing nonsense, so it doesn't really surprise me, so here we go:
Death penalty IS about competitive element. The higher level you get, the better of a player you are, in temp leagues. Std does not matter in that regard, because there is legacy crap going on anyways.

You won't teach players anything by simply taking what they think they have earned with their "hard work". WE know that they are going wrong about their builds/skills/whatever - THEY DO NOT. And if you keep on hitting them with the penalty-mace, they will simply give up on the game. PoE needs a lot of determination to learn, and after you have learned it, is a lot of fun. But this is where PoE is lacking. Hardcore can be fun, but not giving any chance for people to learn is nowhere near fun. The fact that game does really poor job in showing player's mistakes makes it even worse. Most people will simply find other games to enjoy, even if you call them dirty casuals.

PoE is not casual, and never will be, so I have no idea about what coffin you are talking about. Even without the death penalty, most new people will never get past level 80. EVER.

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Perq wrote:

Death penalty IS about competitive element. The higher level you get, the better of a player you are, in temp leagues. Std does not matter in that regard, because there is legacy crap going on anyways.

The biggest factor in keeping yourself on the top of the ladder is being able to chain 78s all day, not the death penalty.

Removing the death penalty in Std would make fights meaningless and completely remove the associated risk. Make the game bland and stupid carebear. A very weird suggestion coming from a competitive, hardcore player like yourself. ;p

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morbo wrote:

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Perq wrote:

Death penalty IS about competitive element. The higher level you get, the better of a player you are, in temp leagues. Std does not matter in that regard, because there is legacy crap going on anyways.

The biggest factor in keeping yourself on the top of the ladder is being able to chain 78s all day, not the death penalty.

Removing the death penalty in Std would make fights meaningless and completely remove the associated risk. Make the game bland and stupid carebear. A very weird suggestion coming from a competitive, hardcore player like yourself. ;p

I'm not competitive or hardcore, lol. I don't have all that much time to even be trying. ;_; I just enjoy the moments of deaths on HC and these "omfg, wtf just happened" kind of thing. But not everyone like those, and quite a few people don't even like dying on softcore.

If you are chaining 78s AND you are dying, you won't get to the top of the ladder. Amarite?
Honestly, many people do not care about "associated risk" - they want the "bland and stupid" keyboard masher. It is not my kind of game (or maybe it would be, from time to time?), but it doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun someone else.

We already have different thing to do, for different players - some people enjoy farming fragments, other go for maps. Some people like farming Piety/Dominus, other people do PvP or whatnot. Std for keyboard mashers would work too, I suppose. :P Give that from what I'm reading, there might be quite a few people enjoying such experience.