Some thoughts on loot tension, and possible designs

Some interesting research regarding risk/reward in gambling and the "prisoners dilemma" that I think are relevant to this discussion regarding loot tension and its appeal to some of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrywDP9Ii0
(5 min video)

from this article: http://blog.gymlion.com/this-article-will-either-make-you-happier-or-more-anxious/

"there are two main explanations for why this happens. (1) From a behavioral standpoint, giving a reward at an intermittent interval (giving an animal food after they press a level 50% of the time) greatly increases pleasure and motivation by creating a surge of domapine. In fact, this effect is maximized when rewards are given 50% of the time (when uncertainty is maximized). This explains, for example, why so many people get addicted to gambling. "

And some new findings about the prisoners dilemma scenario:

full article: http://phys.org/news/2014-11-deceptive-behavior-deceivingly-cooperation.html

"By revealing this hidden complexity behind the evolution of deception, the results provide insight into social dilemmas and highlight the likelihood of unexpected consequences when more sophisticated strategies compete"

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

@Ten: interesting articles. Is this saying that the most interesting combination might be:
1. PvE loot tension mechanic (no one gets item if you do not reach in time)
2. Tune timer so player misses about 50% of the time
3. Double drop rate

?

Interesting... that would indeed sound fun to me. (!) would have to see it in practice to say anything for sure, but that is an innovative and seemingly more fair approach actually. I like it.

However, one of my most favorite aspects of 'loot tension' is the option to turn down good items and let others get it and let them feel like they won out, when really you held back - the 'sharing aspect' that goes unspoken. (thus the similarity with the 'prisoners dilemma')

When I played D2 (with forced FFA) and I picked up a valuable item - very often I would stand off from looting anything for a while and let other players get anything. Often, even in pub groups you would see players leaving rare items for others behind if they didn't suit their class. Not because they were being nice necessarily, but also because pack space was limited and there was a strong need to keep up with the group so running to town was not a high priority compared to xp.

To a degree, how a player loots items is a form of 'table talk' - like in card games where you communicate without saying directly what you are thinking. Everyone I was friends with in D2 had a distinct personality in my mind that was formed by what they grabbed and how generous they were.

-some people grabbed anything/everything - but in a 2 player game they would share or not take drops from your kills, etc.

-others would grab everything, but also share very generously anything they took (was in a pub game one time and a high rune fell, someone else looted it, he went and sold it, rejoined the party and gave us all a share)

-some players were complete looting bastards and kept everything, but were nice enough to rush you or power level you for fun.

-there were players that always looted slowly - who got pissed if you took something from their kill. so you had to respect their space to be a friend.

I could list several more but i think you get the picture, there was a distinct "variety" of looting strategies. That comment from the reddit article I shared earlier where Brian pointed out paraphrasing "other players might as well be bots" really hits home for me, that is exactly the way I feel about PA groups. its not awful, I can deal with it, but everyone might as well be the same, I have no reason to like or dislike anyone and no tough decisions to make - the bassline is flat.

Sadly, I don't think PoE even with actual FFA groups will ever reach the point D2 was at with this mixture - there is just too little incentive to join groups, single player in PoE is almost BETTER then any party arrangement (provided you have a competent character who can kill as fast as they walk) - so you just don't get situations where players need to rely on each other (until late maps, and that's soooo rare in HC) - thus even in the best scenario you would only get some of those "looting personalities" I mentioned - and you know what? I'll take what I can get at this point, I feel any expansion to game variety is good for PoE.

I'm not trying to say D2 was a better game overall here, just that there is still something BIG that it had going for it PoE is still missing, and IMO huge chunk of that was lost when 'loot options' arrived at the end of closed beta.

Anyhow, that is a neat idea Scrotie, the only odd part is where does the item go that nobody got? maybe there could even be monsters that try and loot items and run away. (this has been suggested a few times in the past) somehow though, I dont think GGG is ready to change much with the looting system at this point, thus the reason for my suggestion of just adding incentives for the use of SA or FFA. might be the only realistic solution for now even though I honestly dont think we need more loot at all - but I cant think of any other way to meaningfully add an incentive to looting other then loot.