Some thoughts on loot tension, and possible designs

Per Antee request I'm remaking this as a new thread.

We tend to think of loot tension - the loot options other than PA - as a PvP mechanic. It certainly can be, and this is why I've always felt a proper FFA-style system would best be applied in an open-world PvP league - in other words, Cutthroat. Parties are still a big part of Cutthroat, so there's a lot of ways to design loot tension where the group can turn on the "ninja" instead of passively letting him get away. For example, you could still allocate items, but a player could completely override this at the risk of incurring the PvP wrath of the allocated player and the rest of the party.

Also, having played Cutthroat in both hardcore and softcore forms, I can say SC is far better, since revenge killing is more likely. If anything I'd like to see it softer - let the victim keep his gear, just have him drop his non-worn inventory, so he can revive and come right back looking for vengeance.

However, loot tension doesn't need to be PvP; it can also be PvE. For example, item is allocated to you, but after a timer expires the Hand of Hades springs forth from the ground and drags the item under, never to be seen again. You can still lose a Shav's this way, it's just that instead of another player getting it, no one does.

(Related tidbit: mushrooms in the original Super Mario Bros move right instead of staying still because it means you need to chase them, potentially avoiding enemies as you do. Old school loot tension.)

It is Standard which I feel could benefit the most from a well-designed loot tension mechanic. I was really hoping you might like the Hand of Hades thing, because I believe such a mechanic could enhance solo play as well.

That said, here is what I believe is wrong with SA in PoE at the moment (other than you can't get anyone to play it):

1. Lack of good visuals. To go back to the SMB mushroom example, there is a clear visual indication of how likely the mushroom is to escape. PoE lacks this, and it shouldn't. As it is now, the tension is less palpable and much harder to play with because it is too hard to see what is going on.

2. Not enough time. The SA timer is essentially designed to run out if the allocated player isn't right on top of it. While it would be the intent to compel the player to break from combat and dive into danger to pick up loot on occassion, it shouldn't occur at an obnoxious frequency. I'd start with a full doubling of time periods and tweak from there. (The SMB mushroom does run away, but it really sucks at escaping.)

For Hardcore, I feel PA actually makes sense. The league has enough tension without loot tension.

So, in essence, I'd recommend the following loot systems for each league:
Cutthroat: PvP "allocated FFA"
Hardcore: PA
Standard: much more polished PvE SA

I feel that is the more appropriate way to do "loot options" - yes, the player has a choice, but it is tied to their league choice, and there isn't a route where you can just get away without tension of some form.

For those currently playing in SC, I imagine your major sticking point is SA design point #2. With a long enough timer, you wouldn't miss out often, and when you do you'll have sufficient opportunity that you don't feel you were entirely cheated.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

For example, item is allocated to you, but after a timer expires the Hand of Hades springs forth from the ground and drags the item under, never to be seen again. You can still lose a Shav's this way, it's just that instead of another player getting it, no one does.

It's funny that this is somehow more palatable than someone else getting it. The end result for the player is the same -- the timer ran out and "your Shav's" is not obtainable anymore -- but the global end result is seemingly positive (more shav's are entering the system).

I still feel like SA was never given a fair shake. SA was written as the ideal loot mode, but was being written as people were clamoring for PA. It had only been out the door for a matter of months (with pure FFA beforehand) before PA was introduced.

The biggest problem that people had (mechanically, not philosophically) were that others could stand on the items which made them uncollectable. Had GGG fixed that aspect but still forced people into using SA, things might have gone differently. Similarly tuning the timer in slight ways might have helped significantly.

PA is the ultimate in loot laziness. It's a philosophical rebuke against all forms of loot tension, despite the fact that GGG planned for that to be a core part of the game (and it certainly fits the setting of exiles partying for short-terms without full trust of each other).

It's a simpler game, and it's the world we're in now. I certainly feel that GGG shifted their market segment by allowing PA, and I certainly feel that trying to shift it back would both not win back the old segment and would alienate the new one.

I think you would find the most fertile soil in your open-world-PvP league. I have a feeling that PvP and FFA people are one and the same, and you could potentially see a lot of enjoyment out of something like that. Hell, I might even be tempted to give it a whirl, because it's so vastly different than what I'm accustomed to.

It would also allow a bit of guild competition, which I personally would embrace completely.

Where I think you're going to hit a brick wall is trying to inject loot tension into the single player experience. I think, at the end of the day, we have to remember that this is a game first- a competitive environment second. I want to be able to zone out and mindlessly farm without the stress of my items disappearing before I can recognize/get to them, whether or not the effect is advertised well.

Which gets me to thinking- I would probably be more receptive to all of this if we had a loot filter, or if far less shit was on the screen. One of the things I personally struggle with (even in single player) is the massive amount of words on the screen at any given time. It's frankly headache-inducing, and that's without the stress of a timer looming over me.

That is to say, I would stand no chance at all against someone with younger eyes, and that feels unfair.

Have you considered the impact of the "hades" thing in maps?

That is to say, limited inventory slots and limited amount of portals and the massive amount of loot.

never mind, Antnee already touched base on the points i was going to bring up.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Antnee wrote:

Which gets me to thinking- I would probably be more receptive to all of this if we had a loot filter, or if far less shit was on the screen. One of the things I personally struggle with (even in single player) is the massive amount of words on the screen at any given time. It's frankly headache-inducing, and that's without the stress of a timer looming over me.

Why not use the mechanic as a filter? Give all the white-labeled trash a much shorter timer than maps, rares, gems, etc. (The concept of basing timer duration solely on distance is hilariously flawed; the item itself demands consideration.) You'd have loot which literally cleans itself up.

Isn't loot valued from a person to person. I mean a white agate amulet is useless to some and others are actually looking for them to sell/chance etc.

Isn't that part of the charm of the loot system in place.

This would have to come with a whole customization set of options, that could be changed on the fly and would have to be attached to "character played" for a lot of people.

(i am just gonna poke holes while reading this thread hope you don't mind?)

To put it differently is it worth the total sum of investment compared to what we have now. Pretty sure this played a big part in the options we have now, cost/efficiency vs player-base demand (or in other words flow of $$$)

Also have to partially agree with Pneuma, that is to say, if this was tested before the current implementation, people might have been a lot more receptive of it. But coming from the current model i fear a lot of people would view it as a step back. Then again, only experience could change this mind-set.

Peace,

-Boem-

I don't think loot tension is a good avenue to expand PvE/PvP in a game like this. Loot is too important to overall character progress and too permanent. I'm going to focus on loot permanence rather than progress because the progress side is so obvious.

With regards to permanence, I'm not even talking about the difference between SC and HC. HC loot is still permanent as long as that character lives, which in many cases will be as long as the life of the item matters (let's not discuss server-wide best items; just a typical player). A good item can last hundreds of hours even in HC if you don't have luck finding an upgrade. In my book, trying to create tension a few seconds tension between the time the item drops and the time the item is acquired is absolutely ludicrous when you consider that item can potentially be used or gate progress for hundreds of hours. Those are the cases where people are going to remember the loot tension. If the tension costs the item, people KNOW what they lost, and that it can't be recovered. It's like the SC death penalty, only about 100x more extreme.

Loot tension works in games with ammo, or some other reason items expire before the player wants to discard them. Imagine a pistol and an AK drop. Due to loot tension I may have to settle for the pistol, but it's ok because the AK will run out of ammo anyway. There's going to be another opportunity in the not-so-distant-future to get a better result. Next time I may be the one with the AK and the other guy is stuck using his knife because he wasted all his ammo. Loot tension works when the items expire anyway. POE isn't like that. POE shouldn't have loot tension.

I think it's hard to do right.

Loot tension, if it exists, should enhance gameplay and fit in with the general flow. I can't really think of a way to do that right.

The hand of hades mechanic is an interesting enough idea but doesn't seem to tackle the main issue, which is the timers as well as inventory management.

Timer-wise it's really easy to interrupt gameplay and end up a detriment. If you're in the middle of a good fight against a touch group of monsters where you have to tactically play and position yourself you don't want that disrupted by timers that are completely unaware of context, especially with desync being what it is. It seems that no matter what you're often going to have timers that are either way too long, resulting in work being done for no benefit or way too short, resulting in frustration. A timer that's the right duration in a majority of situations? I don't see it happening.

Next to that is inventory management. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's great to have. But at the same time I don't think it meshes well with loot tension. Inventory management by nature is slower and requires you managing portals, space and other matters to get the most out of your time. With permanent allocation there's natural time for doing that. I think it's way too easy for timed allocation to disrupt that and bring down the overall experience.

I don't think where the loot ends up is the main issue. There's far more tricky things to tackle, probably a way to do it, just not one that I'm aware of.

Loot tension is the only thing that made partying fun. I avoid parties now. Why play in a party when something amazing could drop and be permanently allocated to someone else with no hope of you ever grabbing it? I don't think the timers should be doubled, I think permanent allocation should be removed and people should just suck it up and use a quartz flask if they don't like body blocking.

Also, I have zero interest in cutthroat mode.

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Gobla wrote:

It seems that no matter what you're often going to have timers that are either way too long, resulting in work being done for no benefit or way too short, resulting in frustration. A timer that's the right duration in a majority of situations? I don't see it happening.

How long is too long? Other than "infinite" (status quo for now), I couldn't tell you.

PoE has lots of experience with timer durations which are too short. Drastically too short. The kind of too short which ignites rebellion on the forums.

Our experience with anything else is essentially zero. We wouldn't know "too long" if it bit us on the ass.

Once again, I'll bring up the Mario mushroom. Assuming you've played, how many of those have you missed? You might not be able to recall even a single instance. But it does move away, so due to its great visual representation you just make a habit of collecting it as soon as you see it.

Habit. That's kind of what I'm going for here. I imagine a SC where players sometimes break from combat to pick up loot, then resume the battle. But I imagine them doing so successfully. As in 99.9% successful. Unless they die in the attempt; death should account for virtually all of the misses.

It wouldn't be about taking items from players. It would be about fostering a particular habit. And keeping your eyes peeled.

So whatever timer duration you are imagining - imagine even longer. We're throwing softballs here.