Drop rate problem (of the good stuff)

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Dahita wrote:

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What we need instead is some more actual item diversity

That constantly applies to any game, it's off-topic.

Wrong. If X improves A, B, C and D, and the topic is "what can we do to improve D?" then X is not off-topic to that conversation. If anything, the multiple benefits of X means that it should be preferred over all other suggestions as a way to improve D. Instead, we've got everyone focusing on all kinds of inefficient methods of improving D.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Dahita wrote:

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What we need instead is some more actual item diversity

That constantly applies to any game, it's off-topic.

Wrong. If X improves A, B, C and D, and the topic is "what can we do to improve D?" then X is not off-topic to that conversation. If anything, the multiple benefits of X means that it should be preferred over all other suggestions as a way to improve D. Instead, we've got everyone focusing on all kinds of inefficient methods of improving D.

Agree.
But the topic is "Drop rate problem" in it's current state, today. (i guess).

Your logic is something i agree with (who wouldn't) but it's also so true that it's saying "we all need air to breath". Tad off-topic.

I'm sorry but still no.

I am not talking about how to improve the game beyond anything BUT the drop rate of good items.

I am really trying to emphasize it because if you take other stuff into consideration you come up with... the next update. And the one after or before.

They always made improvements on drop balance here and there. I am saying this is NOT what I'm talking about. I am specifically saying there is not enough good drops and it makes the game boring, which subsequently made all of us leave it. We would be so happy to have a better (actually what should have been regular) drop rate we would finally be able to enjoy spending time all together on POE like before.

Everything else (item suffix balance and what not) is secondary to us and to me, I leave it to your expertise (on another topic :) ).

look at this (from another topic)

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for players who don't want to use 2000 fusings and fail to six-link an item, you can pay 1500 to do it at a crafting bench. Note that the odds of rolling this naturally have always been slightly lower than 1 in 1500 anyway

HOW ON EARTH am I supposed to get 1500 fusing orbs?after an hour playing, how many do you get? 1? 2?

Let's say 2 to be super positive and let's make rapid math.

1500/2 = 750 hours

Let's say that I play 2 hours on monday night, 2 on thursday and what, 4 during the week end (that's alrdy a lot but hey, at some point I have to give something in) That's 8 hours per week. Getting 6 links will take me 93 weeks, ALMOST 2 YEARS.

And you're not counting vacations.

Of course you could say "hey but you're finding a lot of other stuff in the meantime that you can sell to get fusing orbs faster". Yes but this IS the problem. I'm not playing a hack and slash to end up trading half of the time. I want to PLAY the game.

To avoid that, a little more good stuff dropping and you wouldn't NEED to spend SO MUCH TIME farming and trading, you could actually level up with what you find up until level 80/85. Of course I am not asking for drops of full linked 6 socks ultimate armor + weapon, no, I'm asking for more reasonable good stuff and so far it doesn't happen.

Sorry, but this thread makes no sense.

Go look up the post about power creep by one of the D3 devs, it explained beautifully with a graph why just upping drops doesn't make game better.

Lets make it simple, and give things numbers. Itemisation isn't quite this simple but it is depressingly close.

Lets say you have a power level 10 item, or p10.

Any item that is p11 or greater is an upgrade

So lets say that its an hour for a p11 to drop. That means that after an hour, you have a p11. While it is random, the system will average out overall. This also ignores the higher drops, but they just jump you up the ladder

Now its 2 hours for p12 or greater to drop, so the time between upgrades of your gear goes from 1 hour to 3 hour.

This is a very 'simplistic' explanation but the underlying fact stays correct.

Now lets say we double the drop rate, so 1 hour becomes 30 minutes, 2 hours becomes 1 hour.

Now you have a p10, and bam, in half an hour you have p11, and another hour you have p12. This is an hour and a half, compared with the 4 hours from before, so initially you feel like you are doing a lot better.

But it is a curve, so p11 -> p12 is now the equivalent of p10->p11. Same way that p12 -> p13 would now take a lot longer.

Once you reach a certain plvl, the time it takes to get an upgrade will once more be the same, and you will have the same "I can't get p25, it takes too long" where "I can't get p20, it takes to long" was before



Using the 'made up' above, if you changed drop rates so that p15 is p10, you could literally just shift the whole graph so that p15 = p10, and p10 = p5.



When people complain about drop rates, or not enough good items. What they are ACTUALLY complaining about is "The time it takes before finding an item that is better". When you use trading, you jump the plevel order by a large number, and that is why "tTiTBFaITiB" increases, and leads to the misconception that the game isn't rewarding only trading is.

But no matter the drop rate level, assuming we aren't saying BiS drop every 5 minutes, tTiTBFaITiB will always end up being the same, just the relative power level between upgrades will be different. Item with 200 dps, item with 250 dps, item with 300 dps. Going from 200-250 or 250-300, both are an upgrade of 50 dps, but tTiTBFaITiB will be longer for 250-300 because it is rarer, and it doesn't matter about the numbers.


Scrotie in the end is correct. It is the complexity of the items that splits them apart. When you can't divine a number for an item (such as the power level numbers above), that is when it becomes more rewarding. When tTiTBFaITiB is not a set number, because one item may give you damage at a cost of health, while the other is health at the cost of damage, the items aren't directly 'better' or 'worse' but are more complex. The higher the complexity the harder it is to judge whether it is an upgrade or a sideways move.

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Dahita wrote:

HOW ON EARTH am I supposed to get 1500 fusing orbs?after an hour playing, how many do you get? 1? 2?

Let's say 2 to be super positive and let's make rapid math.

1500/2 = 750 hours

1: 6l is not meant to be something you get easily. It is luxury, it is something that takes a very long time. If you want it instantly you are playing the wrong type of game.

2. Fusings are super easy to get. You get 2 an hour, but you also get about 20 magic+rare items over about a minute, or one every 3 seconds. That magic when identified is ~1-6 alt shards on average so lets say 3. 20 alt shards to an alt, 8 alts to a fuse, so 20/3*3, or 20 seconds for an alt. So 20*8 or 2:40 minutes for a fuse. Lets say 3 minutes, which means 20 fuse an hour. That lines up with when I was rare farming bosses with lowish MF. Was easily pulling in 3-4 alts a run, and runs were super quick. Adding this to the other number above of 2, thats 2+20 fuse an hour, and 1500/22 is about 68. That means 68 hours of grinding. A long time, but not 750 hours.

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Dahita wrote:

look at this (from another topic)

"

for players who don't want to use 2000 fusings and fail to six-link an item, you can pay 1500 to do it at a crafting bench. Note that the odds of rolling this naturally have always been slightly lower than 1 in 1500 anyway

HOW ON EARTH am I supposed to get 1500 fusing orbs?after an hour playing, how many do you get? 1? 2?

Let's say 2 to be super positive and let's make rapid math.

1500/2 = 750 hours

Let's say that I play 2 hours on monday night, 2 on thursday and what, 4 during the week end (that's alrdy a lot but hey, at some point I have to give something in) That's 8 hours per week. Getting 6 links will take me 93 weeks, ALMOST 2 YEARS.

And you're not counting vacations.

Of course you could say "hey but you're finding a lot of other stuff in the meantime that you can sell to get fusing orbs faster". Yes but this IS the problem. I'm not playing a hack and slash to end up trading half of the time. I want to PLAY the game.

To avoid that, a little more good stuff dropping and you wouldn't NEED to spend SO MUCH TIME farming and trading, you could actually level up with what you find up until level 80/85. Of course I am not asking for drops of full linked 6 socks ultimate armor + weapon, no, I'm asking for more reasonable good stuff and so far it doesn't happen.

i know you said that's not what you're asking for, so why did you post it as if you were? Responding to what you are talking about in the quote though, i'll just say this. You do know the name of the company is Grinding Gear games, I'm sure. You're talking about getting the best rewards without doing the grinding they designed for them. If it takes 600 hours to grind enough for a 6-link, that's how long it takes. If you play less per week, that 600 hours is going to take you a lot longer than somebody who plays 4 hours a day. But in the end, it's still the same amount of grinding. I think you lost sight of your argument when you started talking about 6 links. Stick to saying there's no good items between levels 30 and 60 and you might have some support. Talking about lessening the grind to get a 6 link is fine for players who don't play much, but would totally ruin the game for those who play more. Easy access to 6 links would take away the fun of earning it and after you have it, what else is left to play for?

I also think you're playing the trading card too much. You most likely do need to trade if you want the best stuff. But you can get by with stuff you find. My first characters were pretty much all self found. Then as I found stuff with those characters, I was able to make other builds. I didn't really start trading until Ambush league. I know some people act like you have to trade to play this game, and that's just not true. It's only true if you want to make a build that needs certain uniques that you haven't found yet. So don't make those builds until you find the gear or want to trade for it.

My god seriously what don't you understand in:

"we don't get good drops enough"? what is so hard to understand?

It takes an hour to get a p10 when you're lvl 10, then make it p11 and change it to half an hour

You're comparing it to trade, I said the whole post that trade in this game became a plague and you come here saying "Actually trade makes you feel that it's easier". No, no it does not.

I'm going to make it as SIMPLE as I can:

It came to a point no one was interested in playing anymore because there was no reward coming. We then dropped 2 maps, +1900%mf. We decided we would give it one last shot the week coming using these 2 maps. We were 3 players (roughly one lvl 80, one lvl 78 and me lvl 70 or so).

NOT ONE GOOD DROP. We got a pair of whool shoes, maybe a low level orb and that was it. Took 40 mins to do these maps, 2 weeks to a month to actually drop them. And for what?

Do you get it now?

We're not even asking for crazy items, no. Just when you're level 80 and you fight a real difficult boss, please make it drop a lvl 80/82 items once in a while instead of never.

Edit: also for your other post, I think you really need to read the whole thing before answering.

"Of course I am not asking for drops of full linked 6 socks ultimate armor + weapon, no, I'm asking for more reasonable good stuff and so far it doesn't happen."

Does that look like I said "I want 5linked armors instantly" to you? Also, "20 fusing orbs an hour", please. I'm not even going there.

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Dahita wrote:

My god seriously what don't you understand in:

"we don't get good drops enough"? what is so hard to understand?

It takes an hour to get a p10 when you're lvl 10, then make it p11 and change it to half an hour
quote]

You read what I wrote, did you not understand it?

If we change it so that it takes half an hour to get a p10. Then you have a whole set of p10 gear, and it now takes an hour to get p11.

You then have the exact same problem that you have tTiTBFaITiB once more at an hour, and you would have the same complaint 'nothing good drops, can't get my p11 without an entire hour'

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Real_Wolf wrote:

If we change it so that it takes half an hour to get a p10. Then you have a whole set of p10 gear, and it now takes an hour to get p11.

You then have the exact same problem that you have tTiTBFaITiB once more at an hour, and you would have the same complaint 'nothing good drops, can't get my p11 without an entire hour'

My goodness. I think it's hopeless. please don't pollute this post anymore.