The next thing that needs to be redesigned for the sake of balance

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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mazul wrote:

What it should be changed to is a formula such as Diablo 3 and LoL: Damage reduction against elemental damage = x/(a + b*x) where x is some form of resistance stat and "a" and "b" are constants.

I fucking hate this suggestion.

...here's a different idea which would mitigate the problem described above, while retaining capped resistances...

• Cruel resistance penalty changed to -25% resistances and -5% maximum resistances (so from -25 to 70 instead of from -20 to 75).
• Cruel monster and environmental elemental damage decreased by 20%, chaos damage by 10%.
• Merciless resistance penalty changed to -75% resistances and -15% maximum resistances (so from -75 to 60 instead of from -60 to 75).
about 10%.[/li]
• Merciless monster and environmental elemental damage halved, chaos damage by reduced by 20%.

So, you're advocating breaking every character's defensive gear balance just because you don't like the idea of diminishing returns on resistance stacking beyond 75%?

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner to award:

Most shamelessly self-indulgent Scrotie post of the week.

Any "Penetration" mechanics or touching of any Max Res will result in Max Res becoming that much more mandatory. Someone even suggested -40% penetration; that leaves anyone with 75% normal res smacked down to 35%. Then there are a few others who are actually thinking the problem through.

Some other suggestions:
Move the normal max res down and scale down monster damage. This makes each point of increased max res a much smaller damage reduction than if it were calculated at 75%+.
Example: 50 Normal Max + 10% Max results in a player taking 20% less elemental damage. At 75 Normal Max + 10% Max, a player is taking 40% less damage.

Add a "absolute damage" mechanic of sorts that starts from 100%. It hurts players with higher res more than players without it.
Example: Monster has 30% absolute damage. 100% max - 30% = 70% possible max res to it.

Change "Max Res" to "% Reduced Elemental Damage." A mechanic like that becomes less effective the more resistances you have.
Example: @ 0 Res: 50% Reduced Elemental Damage = 50% Elemental Damage Reduced. @ 50 Res: 50% Reduced Elemental Damage = 25% Elemental Damage Reduced.

Do the D3 thing and add diminishing returns and remove the cap.


All of these have their pros and cons. All of them also involve a shitton of work. PoE just might be too far into its life to actually have something like this changed (sort of like the defense trio of energy shield, armor, and evasion.)

Cutting the resist cap to 50 seems like the simplest to implement however, since you can mathematically scale monster damage down to end up being the exact same as it is now assuming a baseline. So if 52% = 77%, then a monster that did 1,000 base damage before would do 479 base damage after the change. End result is no change in received damage if your resists are capped and have two points of increased cap.

Player elemental damage might be a little more difficult to work in, but since it's pretty much balanced under the assumption that players are going to be reducing enemy resists like crazy anyway (ever try burning a curse-immune capped-resist enemy without a penetration gem?), I think that simply reducing the level of resist reduction that reducing effects have would be all the balance needed. So for example penetration gems would penetrate a maximum of 15% resist now. Less damage against 0% resist enemies, but let's be honest they never lasted more than a second anyway.

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Terrornoid wrote:

Any "Penetration" mechanics or touching of any Max Res will result in Max Res becoming that much more mandatory. Someone even suggested -40% penetration; that leaves anyone with 75% normal res smacked down to 35%. Then there are a few others who are actually thinking the problem through.

Hm, i think you did not thought it to the end. I want to give you an example. Lets take again Piety's Lightning Storm that hits for ~1.5k.

In the current state, 10% max res means that you will reduce the hits by 40% or, in netto values, from 1500 at 75 to 900 at 85.

If you give her 15 penetration and say "okay, lets base her damage arround 60% res", she would do these 1.5k at 60% res(75%-15%). This means, 10% max res would decrease the hits by 25% (40% -> 30%) or, in netto values, from 1500 to 1175. This is an "okay" value, it is not mandatory but it would help.

In case of Atziri, we could say:"Okay, we do not want that people survive this double flameblast with less then 4.5k HP/ES pool and 75% res". Then you give her simply 75% penetration and base her damage arround 0%. It means, with the penetration, she's doing 4,5k damage. Even if you have the full fire res set you would reduce the damage only by 25%, which will leave you still with a ~3.4k hit out of 4,5k. Thats a difference, but in this szenario, a strong HP/ES pool would outweight the advantage of the max res. (Edit: It would also open diversity, since you can choose if you want to increase EHP or flat Pool!!)

As you can see, there is a lot more room for fine tuning, if you give a boss penetration. (instead of reworking the complete elemental system, lolz)

There is no cap on how much you can go over %75.
This is the real problem. If there was a hard cap lets say like %80 there would be no problems.

@RogueMage: Um, no. Diminishing returns on resists is never going to happen in this game, and you know it; talking about pure fantasy is moot.

I was running the numbers more with my suggestion, and I'd like to add some refinements.

• Merciless enemy and environmental damage reduced by four ninths (five ninths remaining), not halved. (Half was too much of a damage nerf.)
• Resistance flask effect increased to +15% maximum resistance (from 10%).
• Purity maximum resistances changed to 1% plus another 1% per 4 full gem levels (+6% at gem level 20, +8% at gem level 28).
• Righteous Fire changed to 35% of Life as self-inflicted burn and 25% of Energy Shield.

These numbers show that my suggestion would soften the blow for characters who do not meet resist cap in Merciless, and that players using two out of the three of passive resistance, Purities, and resistance flasks would normally not be punished, or at least not punished severely. What would be nerfed would be plans to achieve near-immunity to elemental damage by combining resistance flasks and Purities simultaneously, especially when combined with passive increases to maximum resistance.

In terms of Righteous Fire... In other words, RF builds would be more about stacking regen and less about stacking max Fire resist, while remaining viable.

Notably, one thing I haven't worked out is Arctic Armour. That, unfortunately, would probably require fine-tuning in an otherwise simple-to-apply suggestion.

once again, i didn´t understand why you would want to kill another mechanic DaScroti ?
Wasn´t it enough that now everyone needs to run around in Goldwyrms ?

If your Goal is to nerf +max resis, then why don´t you just do so ?
Just make "+max resis" take count for the highest numeric value of equipped "+max resi"-modiefiers.

Lets say you have a weapon with +3max and boots with +2max and helm with +1max,
then switch weapons you end with boots your highest for 77%max down from 78%
helm doesn´t take effect anytime and is useless for this build.
Result: +max resis nerfed, alot of complaints on the forum, potions still able to be +10max

The problem is less about max resists and more about the disproportionate effect going below cap or above max has on effective HP.

Currently going above cap dramatically is almost required to handle endgame content, and dropping even down to 70% is a death sentence.

It would be nicer if you weren't required to stack max resists, and if you only took a little bit more damage if you were a little under the cap.

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Lachdanan wrote:

once again, i didn´t understand why you would want to kill another mechanic DaScroti ?
Wasn´t it enough that now everyone needs to run around in Goldwyrms ?

If your Goal is to nerf +max resis, then why don´t you just do so ?

The only thing I'm trying to kill here is elemental near-immunity. I'm emphatically not trying to kill the concept of +max resistance itself, and when it's present in small doses I'm trying to avoid nerfing it. Did you even look at my numbers chart?

By the way, Astarte's suggestion for giving monsters elemental penetration can work out about the same as mine, but it's a little trickier to apply. Might be more interesting in the end, however, so it might be worth the extra work. Either mine or his, both work.

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Astarte911 wrote:

If you want to do it "decent" give the char 6k Armour and add the "iron skin" flask mod agaisnt a 1,5k hit (Shrine Piety hits for arround 1.5k with their Lightning Storm at 75% so i think this kind of hit is "decent")

dmg_red = 1/1+(dmg*12/armour) = 1/1+(18k/18k) = 0.5 -> 2xEHP

BAM, nearly same result in EHP increase then Res Flask. Nice, isn't it ?

You'll have to compare it to the status prior to using granite of 100% iron skin, which is:

1 - armour/(armour + 12*dmg) = 1 - 6000/(6000 + 12*1500) = 0.75

=> 0.75/0.5 = 1.5 => which means that the actual effect of that flask in that example is 50% more effective hp.

That's more in line with the 66.67% more effective hp that a resist flask gives at 75% max res. However, it is far from the 200% more effective hp in the 85% max res case.

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Also, a medal for this guy:

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Simple solution: make it possible for some mobs / bosses to have RESISTANCE PENETRATION. I am talking about -20% to -40% max resistance penetration on any elemental damage. If ALL of Atziri's spells had resistance penetration it would have been a different story - but I guess GGG must love the 100% max resistance builds cheesing their strongest content lol.

More simple, no need for item adjustment, no need for balancing CI/nor any other build/tree, no need for implementing new functions for resistances. Simple and effective.

If you actually change anything with the current resistance system, they would have to balance any single part of this game again(spells, ele dmg, nodes, items) - Honestly, you think this will make PoE better ?

Yes, indeed resistance penetration is another way to go as well. Resistance penetration should though be typed out in the monster info and the degree of it as well. Like "Penetrates 20% fire". Players shouldn't have to guess whether or not a foe penetrates an element and to what degree, because the way they had to prepare for the encounter would require a lot of "boring" field tests to figure out if it penetrates and to what degree.

Edit: also time for me to read scrotie's posts now XD. I expected his posts to take a lot of time to digest through number-crunching so I've postponed reading them until now :P.