The next thing that needs to be redesigned for the sake of balance

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gilrad wrote:

I think one "easy to implement" fix that won't require retuning every damn thing in the game would be to simply:

- Cut the max elemental resist to 50%,

- Double all max elemental resist effects (or simply make them a "less X elemental damage received effect).

(...)

I like the points you make.

I think for pots to keep on feeling useful after these changes no matter how much max ele resist one has while at the same time preventing the insane benefits they get at higher stacking, they would have to change their effect to something like "30% less elemental damage taken". (Similar change should be done for the unique max res flask)

To give a practical example of what this would look like in practice for heavy stacking builds:

Natural max res: 50%
Elemental Adaptation: 2*2%
Diamond Skin: 2*1%
Fire/light/cold resistance nodes: 2*1%
Corrupted Armor: 2*1%
Corrupted Amulet: 2*1%
Purity of X with aura and buff nodes: 2*10%
Unique: 2*5% (If Rise of Phoenix: 2*8%)

=> Total of 92% max res (98% vs fire if Rise of Phoenix is used)

Hmm, seems that the effect would be too strong. I suppose changing the "max resist" part of purity of X in normal form to have an effect of like "30% more effective hp vs fire/ice/lightning damage at lv23 gem" would solve the issues, because then with aura and buff nodes, the effect would be roughly "60% more effective hp vs fire/ice/lightning damage at lv23 gem".

Redesigning the purity auras in such way in addition to the flask changes and the "double max res changes", would lead to that a "max res" stacker would have 72% max res (78% max res vs fire). This means that their effective hp without purity and flasks would be roughly 80% more than for a vanilla 50% max res player, which is fair given their investment.

Are you guys aware of the fact, that GGG base the DMG output of mobs on the current system?

If you change the system, then they will retune the damage of the mobs. Or do you really think Shrine Piety's Lightning Strom will ever hit for less then 1.5k at 75%?

The only thing that should be retuned is the -max map mod, since he can double the elemental dmg and makes some bosses impossible to kill (it does not make it hard, it makes it nearly impossible!)

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Astarte911 wrote:

Are you guys aware of the fact, that GGG base the DMG output of mobs on the current system?

If you change the system, then they will retune the damage of the mobs. Or do you really think Shrine Piety's Lightning Strom will ever hit for less then 1.5k at 75%?

The only thing that should be retuned is the -max map mod, since he can double the elemental dmg and makes some bosses impossible to kill (it does not make it hard, it makes it nearly impossible!)

Sure, if the elemental damage "mitigation" is changed, it is only to be expected that the damage output of monsters will be adjusted as well. The goal (or at least my intention) is to make the difference in effective hp between stacking max res and not doing so be far less than it is now, so that it becomes far easier for the devs to answer the question "How much elemental damage should this enemy do?".


The difference between 95% max res and 75% max res is that the former has 400% more effective hp. When you have such massive difference in effective hp, it becomes a nightmare to answer the question "How much elemental damage should this enemy do?".

To solve this, multiple suggestions by different people have been posted in this thread.

"

mazul wrote:

"

gilrad wrote:

I think one "easy to implement" fix that won't require retuning every damn thing in the game would be to simply:

- Cut the max elemental resist to 50%,

- Double all max elemental resist effects (or simply make them a "less X elemental damage received effect).

(...)

I like the points you make.

I think for pots to keep on feeling useful after these changes no matter how much max ele resist one has while at the same time preventing the insane benefits they get at higher stacking, they would have to change their effect to something like "30% less elemental damage taken". (Similar change should be done for the unique max res flask)

To give a practical example of what this would look like in practice for heavy stacking builds:

Natural max res: 50%
Elemental Adaptation: 2*2%
Diamond Skin: 2*1%
Fire/light/cold resistance nodes: 2*1%
Corrupted Armor: 2*1%
Corrupted Amulet: 2*1%
Purity of X with aura and buff nodes: 2*10%
Unique: 2*5% (If Rise of Phoenix: 2*8%)

=> Total of 92% max res (98% vs fire if Rise of Phoenix is used)

Hmm, seems that the effect would be too strong. I suppose changing the "max resist" part of purity of X in normal form to have an effect of like "30% more effective hp vs fire/ice/lightning damage at lv23 gem" would solve the issues, because then with aura and buff nodes, the effect would be roughly "60% more effective hp vs fire/ice/lightning damage at lv23 gem".

Redesigning the purity auras in such way in addition to the flask changes and the "double max res changes", would lead to that a "max res" stacker would have 72% max res (78% max res vs fire). This means that their effective hp without purity and flasks would be roughly 80% more than for a vanilla 50% max res player, which is fair given their investment.

Alright, I'll admit I didn't think that whole "double max resist points" bit through, haha.

Lets nerf spectral throw :3. Too many ST builds farming uber atziri need massive nerf.

Simple solution: make it possible for some mobs / bosses to have RESISTANCE PENETRATION. I am talking about -20% to -40% max resistance penetration on any elemental damage. If ALL of Atziri's spells had resistance penetration it would have been a different story - but I guess GGG must love the 100% max resistance builds cheesing their strongest content lol.

Some really interesting points in this thread so far.

I actualy have alot to say about this topic but im to drunk to type ATM so rtommorow.

"

mazul wrote:

The difference between 95% max res and 75% max res is that the former has 400% more effective hp. When you have such massive difference in effective hp, it becomes a nightmare to answer the question "How much elemental damage should this enemy do?".

Well, that's part of it, no doubt. It should be stupidly hard to get to that 4x EHP multiplier level, when the first 13 points is a doubling and another 6 is another doubling.

But I've been thinking about this more and I'd like to go into more detail regarding my suggestion from earlier in this thread.

If you haven't read Mad Prophecies 2 by Brother Laz, you really should. I linked it earlier, or just google it. But the TL;DR is: balancing defensive options like these is extremely hard, because if you make it too weak (having too small of an impact on survivability, or weak monsters) no one will use it, but if you make it too strong (too much of an impact on survivability, or strong monsters) everyone will be forced to use it. Either way, there's a huge risk, some might even say certainty, of not allowing for actual build diversity; everyone tends to do the same things.

Thus, I want to clarify that I'm not the guy who thinks Ruby Flasks (etc) should have no impact on incoming damage, or that Purity of Fire (etc) should be nerfed into the ground. In order for these skills to have meaning, they need to have some significant impact in terms of damage mitigation. The problem, it seems, is that their current impact is too significant, making them virtually required to handle some of the content in the game (ex: Alluring Abyss).

What I do think is that it is something which requires a very delicate balance. In order to achieve such a delicate balance, a small rate of incrementation is necessary. What I mean by that is that, in some cases, a 1% increase in maximum resistances is too little and a 2% increase is too much, but the design of the system allows no options between 1% and 2%. This is why my suggestion expands the "+x maximum resistances" field from 25 points between the normal cap and outright immunity, to 40 points. This offers a greater field of values and allows for a finer balance.

In the case of certain max resistance sources, such as the passive nodes, I don't think buffing them under my suggestion would be necessary, which would mean an effective nerf. However, I definite do not think resistance Flasks or the Purities should remain at their current values under my suggestion. For example, under my suggestion, a default-capped player using a Ruby Flask would prevent 25% of incoming Fire damage, as opposed to 40% now. That would have a huge impact on whether people use Ruby Flasks or not, and that's not something I think should be unusable, so maybe 15% to max for the resistance flasks (which would be 37.5% mitigation) would be more appropriate. However, the real advantage would be in fine-tuning the Purity auras, where every little point counts. Right now, I feel the 4% for level 20 and 5% for level 23 is too much... but that 3% for 20 and 4% for 23 would be too little. Initially I'd imagine 6% for 20 and 7% for 24 (1% plus 1% per 4 full gem levels), but the point would be that adjustments could be far finer for future balancing.

"

mazul wrote:

To solve this, multiple suggestions by different people have been posted in this thread.

If you do one or two step backwards, you will see, all you guys is doing is "QQing" about too much DMG spikes and the possiblities to tank it. For sure, you doing this on a higher level, but its still "QQing".

Also, you wrote somewhere an example about granit and res flask. Hell, giving the character zero armour but 75% res ? Whats that for a reference frame (In addition, you choose an allready pretty hard hit of 2k, while knowing that the formula doesnt allow high EHP increase to high hits)

If you want to do it "decent" give the char 6k Armour and add the "iron skin" flask mod agaisnt a 1,5k hit (Shrine Piety hits for arround 1.5k with their Lightning Storm at 75% so i think this kind of hit is "decent")

dmg_red = 1/1+(dmg*12/armour) = 1/1+(18k/18k) = 0.5 -> 2xEHP

BAM, nearly same result in EHP increase then Res Flask. Nice, isn't it ?

Sorry, if im sounding a bit sick, but all the nerfs (especially in Invasion) made the game just worse, in my totally personal opinion.

Also, a medal for this guy:

"

Simple solution: make it possible for some mobs / bosses to have RESISTANCE PENETRATION. I am talking about -20% to -40% max resistance penetration on any elemental damage. If ALL of Atziri's spells had resistance penetration it would have been a different story - but I guess GGG must love the 100% max resistance builds cheesing their strongest content lol.

More simple, no need for item adjustment, no need for balancing CI/nor any other build/tree, no need for implementing new functions for resistances. Simple and effective.

If you actually change anything with the current resistance system, they would have to balance any single part of this game again(spells, ele dmg, nodes, items) - Honestly, you think this will make PoE better ?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

*I know this is a bit of a digression, but: I've noticed the difference between prefixes and suffixes for a while, but I can't help but believe it was mostly accident on GGG's part (and thus, while good design, perhaps not intended). For example, I have no idea why Mana was a prefix back in beta, although now it makes sense due to Mind over Matter (were they planning that far ahead?), and I personally would have made all the good attack-damage options for weapons prefixes (along with Mana), much as we do now, but also made all of the good spell-damage options suffixes, so you could have a weapon which is good at both (and then nerf CoC to compensate if necessary).

I hadn't noticed this. Interesting. :)