Love playing PoE? Tired of trading or RMT - or do you enjoy either? Vote here!

"
LSN wrote:
@mrpetrov


How would you implement a SFL? Softcore permanent? Softcore 4 month that can become permanent?

What would you tell the hc guys who wanted to play SF too?


Will this at the end lead into doubling leagues to make it right for everyone? Noone was able to give an honest answer to this yet.


LSN, legitimate questions. Firstly, I wouldn't suggest my ideas on implementation are worth anything - GGG are the experts so I would happily leave implementation to them (but reserve the right to disagree!).

Sorry for the non-answer, but I don't want to derail the core concept which - for me - is to *test* a SFL. Details are important, but we will never get everyone to agree on the details, which is why I believe those should be left to GGG in their entirety.

On the point of splitting leagues, of course that is something to consider. My hypothesis is that creating a SFL will split leagues, but it will also premote new and renewed demand for PoE. Whether that new demand is enough to balance a natural splitting of leagues, I don't have any sensible basis to say one way or the other.

What I do feel confident saying, however, is that not doing a SFL because it might be "too popular" and cause standard (and other trading leagues) to become a ghost town is *not* a good reason not to test a SFL. Otherwise we'd all still be communicating by carrier pigeon (it works!).

P.
"
iamstryker wrote:
"
LSN wrote:
Ty Striker, I appreciate your praise. Changes nothing about the fact that you should either admit that you want devs to do detrimental stuff to their game, or admit that other thing that I edited out.


Being detrimental to the game is just your imagination/opinion and not a fact as you like to parade around this thread.

I'm not going to continue arguing with you though since your resorting to insults which the mods should be taking care of right now.


You don't factor in time.

What will you tell SFL proponents in 8 months who desire a new 4 month SFL then? Will you tell "we promised 8 months ago that we wont demand this ..."?

If you review your point like this it becomes quite ridiculous. Having SF leagues already now means to have double as many leagues as now in the long term with no doubt (this is what I mean when I say you guys are deluding).



Last edited by LSN on April 21, 2014 3:54 PM
LSN - you realise we're all arguing hypotheticals, right?

What we know is that, based on the limited evidence we have, most people support testing a SFL. We also know far more people support testing a SFL than not testing one.

Would you be ok with GGG *testing* a SFL, so that we can establish more evidence rather than these enjoyable sessions of (figuratively) talking at one another?

P.
@mrpetrov, I like you keeping a neutral standpoint. Nevertheless the obvious is that a SFL makes only sense when following the existing system of leagues with sc/hc perm/4months.

It is not even questionable from the macro point of view (that you deny to judge about) that this must not benefit PoE in the long term.


I give you guys an easy example:

Starcraft 2 1on1 ladder vs unranked:

Blizzard decided to let unranked players play vs. ranked players for the exact reasons that for me stand against a seperate SFL and in the end SFL system that doubles the number of leagues.

Alternatively to a SFL I would therefore support the introduction of SF charackters/accounts into the existing system of leagues.


You wont convince GGG if these detailed things are not made all clear btw.
Last edited by LSN on April 21, 2014 3:56 PM
"
LSN wrote:


Yet you cannot accept that the hard facts stand against a SFL


Post a single fact and maybe I'll respond to it.
iamstryker- 83 Witch--------------IamDeadly- 78 Shadow
IamFoeHammer- 83 Templar-----IamScorned- 85 Witch
IAMFIREWALKER- 80 Witch-------TheOneScorned 75 Scion
IAMJuggernaut- 77 Duelist-------IamARCangel 62 witch
IamSPARTACUSx- 90 Mara--------IamEntropy 85 Duelist
"
iamstryker wrote:
"
LSN wrote:


Yet you cannot accept that the hard facts stand against a SFL


Post a single fact and maybe I'll respond to it.


Facts have been posted several times. You are good at ignoring things that you don't like to hear.


Furthermore your argumentation is like: You like the idea of a SFL (for whatever reason) and because others like it too (for reasons, that I have invalidated and they have been deluded about) you don't care about anything else than just your egoistic demand.


You know as well as me that 80-90% of people in this thread and poll believe that they will get better drops from a SFL. As this is unlikely to happen these people are deluded by wrong hopes and basically lies.

In fact these people just want better drops (as all casuals in every game like this want) and therefore support the idea of a SFL. Now while these people are deluded, you both delude about the fact that your poll is falsyfied all through exactly for this reason.


A SFL would in no way increase the experience of how craft and drop RNG works (this is a fact, and not because I am saying this but because of simple mathematics and common sense).
Last edited by LSN on April 21, 2014 4:14 PM
"
LSN wrote:
Facts.


Calling product of your imagination a fact doesn't make it a fact.

The whole "detrimental" notion you present as a fact is nothing more than hand-waving.
No one knows how it will play out in the long run.
Just like no one knows how many players will participate, the amount of complaints et al.
appology for wall of text, it happens. Spoilered my responses to reduce clutter and the need to make 3 different posts about the same thing.

"
Arrowneous wrote:
The current state of PoE for the solo player is weighted toward the vendor trash end too much and many have quit playing for this reason. Secondly, if the critical crafting orbs (fusing, jeweler, alts, etc) are too few and far between for the solo player, then this is also viewed as a failure as the time required is too steep. Since Snorkle_uk is ok with a very high grind time to get the "critical" crafting orbs to drop (1000s instead of 100s of hours), he sees the SFL as a league that would make him run out of things to do in a short time.

This is where he (and everyone else) who loves the fact that PoE takes 1000s of hours to acquire wealth and anything less then that time grind makes for a failure


Spoiler

thanks for a post that addresses what I was saying. Well, yes and no to these specific points. I've made the case that fusing and jewellers are bullshit many, many times on here. Either we dont get enough of them or the chances are just set way too low. Why is using gear I find more expensive than buying gear in trade? Trust me Ive written walls upon walls on text on those problems for the last year. They did listen though, they vastly increased the chances of getting 4 link and upped the 5 link probability by 25%, and now the drop boxes have upped the quantity of orbs we are getting. I still think theres room to drop a little more currency in the leagues, it doesnt effect trade, we get more orbs, we charge more orbs, we pay more orbs, it doesnt change anything but the amount of stacks being traded, it just makes crafting more accessible.

Regarding the last point, I see what you are saying but I think I see it from a different point of view. "anything less then that time grind makes for a failure" why failure? Surely it is all relative, surely it's only a failure if you compare what you ended up with against someone whos played 10x the amount of time as you? Part of these games is that they dont change in some aspects. What I mean by that is lvl2 in mudflats with a single gem has a similar difficulty as lvl32 in cruel mudflats with a 4 link and lvl90 in crematorium with a 6 link. Its a journey and where ever you are along it theres room to go forward until you hit 100 and have all the gear and beat all the content possible. Nowhere along the line is a failure as such. A really good arpg game keeps that line as long as possible, because its the same thing all the way along it just with bigger numbers. It doesnt matter how far the line stretches ahead of you, what matters is that it doesnt run out.

Think of it this way, if everyone who played this game was like you or had even less time, you having a lvl71 character would make you one of the top players, your gear would be better than most peoples. Would you still feel like your wealth was a failure? I dont think you would. Lets talk about this from my perspective and bash me as a player to make the point, my highest characters are a small grind away from lvl92, I leant a friend 176 chaos to get some gears a few days ago, when he pays me back Ill have a little over 1200 chaos in my ambush stash. Now there are players with lvl100 characters and 2000+ exalts in their stash, level 92 is less than half way to level 100. I will never get to 100, I will never have 500 exalts in my stash, I will never be able to craft bis gear like they do, or even own it.

How do I feel about that? Feels great man, I look out at the future for me and PoE and see an infinite road I can walk down until Ive had my fill, a bottomless bowl of candy. In terms of wealth, level and gear am I a failure compared to those guys? Maybe, if I chose to see it that way, but I dont. Its not even time, Ive probably played more than some of them, they just min/maxed their time and wealth better, theyre just better players. If I want to get on that level I need to man up and learn to play on that level. I dont want to, Im happy with how I play. If they edited the game so that my effort investment would get me to where they are, then they would need to make more game because I dont want to stop playing, it would be like fast forwarding to the last scene of the film, then demanding part 2 because youve finished the first one. Im not saying this invalidates the point you are making, I think you do have a valid point, but its an angle that I feel needs brought up and Ill come back to this after I bring in what temper has said.



"
Temper wrote:
[
Better gear than a lot of solo self found players find after farming for weeks.You're a very lucky guy in my books with that gear.The boots are actually really good (a truck load better than what I managed to get) and as a whole the gear nets you some good HP and resists.That gear is practically good enough to call bullshit on if you didn't admit farming maps.




Spoiler

I went and ilvl checked the gear, the chest is from a map, this is the chest it replaced...



that was found in merciless docks. The axe was from merciless docks, the hat and gloves are like lvl50 gear. I don't feel like I got lucky with the gear, heres some bits also found in docks from other leagues...



you can get really good gear from docks and piety without going anywhere near maps or merciless dominus. Obviously theres people who get unlucky, but finding gear and days played is a tricky thing to compare.

This is where it ties to what Im saying above, people have played less than me and have far better gear than me. Arrows top char is lvl71, your top char is lvl71, I could get higher level than that in a fresh league in 2 days using gear I have found. There are people who get to that level in 1 sitting. My first char it took me weeks to get to 71, maybe even a month. So If a player is playing 5x as many hours in a day, and clearing content 5x faster, the gear they find and the level they reach in a few days might well go beyond what the other guy gets in a month. Even if you start talking in hours played to iron out the time difference, if a player clears content fast they get more loot. So drawing a line between loot rng and being a better player is not clear cut at all. There are many people ahead of me in this game cause flat out theyre better players, 10 minutes into a new league theyre already twice as far ahead and will stay twice as far forever. I cant compare my gear, my wealth, my character levels to theirs and expect to have the same unless Im willing to put in the effort they have to learn how to get it. Time is a factor, I will never have the amount of free time some of them do, but knowledge and efficiency are key in this game too, and I cant compete on that level either.




these are items im using that I have found in ambush. Ive found multiple alpha howls, carcass jack, bloodseeker, monteguls grasp, bringer of rain, Ive found/crafted maybe ten endgame viable 5 link body armours using self found orbs/bases. People talk about trading vs self found as if all players who have good gear bought it. Where do you think the gear comes from? Someone is finding it. Ive sold wayyyy more op gear that I have bought. I agree with a lot of the thoughts behind the SFL idea, but I think its important when all of us look at players with more than we have that we be real with ourselves and admit a lot of it is on our shoulders, we need to step up if we really want that next level of gears/wealth. Im not a really good, efficient player and Im pretty sure you guys arnt either.



"
Arrowneous wrote:
The debate over whether a SFL should allow or ban trading is still unresolved but I personally don't care either way.


Spoiler

now here is the most interesting of points, and where I feel we are getting towards some middle ground on how we view this thing. Should an SFL allow trading? Surely the whole point of an SFL is that theres no trading? But thats not really waht we are talking about is it, its not about a self found league, its about a league where something is different, and to you that difference is what you want, you dont care about it being a self found league or not. What do we want that is different?

Doesnt this come down to crafting? Its sort of about gear but as I have said above, I personally dont see gear drops as an issue, its more a player efficiency and perception problem, the gear we get beats the game, its just not as good as the gear better players than us have, or shit players who flip items to make money, sure those guys exist but the problem sort of doesnt because its not about us v the game, its about our egos vs someone elses items, and thats not a valid reason to make big changes.

I think this boils down to what you guys have said about crafting, youre orb starved, in the current environment orbs are always better used as currency so you are locked out a whole aspect of the game. It snot about where you are on that line of progression, its about something that could be really engaging and motivating in the game, crafting, being permanently excluded from the game by stingy drop rates/odds of them working. Is that fair to say?


I feel that way too, but you said above, does an slf need to ban trading? Yes, or its not an slf. Do we need to ban trading to get what we want here? No I dont think we do. A crafting league is a very different idea to a self found league with partying and trading disabled. Im reasonably well off in this game, middleclass, I feel like I cant really craft as much as Id like to. Im like a tramp compared to a guy like Hegemonica, and I have heard him say similar things on his stream, he would like some sort of crafting league, willy wonka was talking about it, morsexier has mentioned things... Its not something that solo self found players only experience, doesnt matter how rich you are or how much you love being part of a trading community in a social game and all the layers of knowledge, complexity and opportunity that brings.

By attaching self found baggage to the idea this makes it so niche, and it forces players to chose between getting better drops and being part of a game with more longevity and a strong community which are at the core of this games success and continued life. Theres a post by a guy in the suggestion forums, Ive heard streamers talk about it, Ive discussed it with friends, it would be cool to have a league where only uniques, white items and tons of currency drop. This would change up the meta games so much, it would all be about item knowledge, crafting knowledge, and it would give us all a chance to have a lot of fun crafting. I wanted to make a suggestion post about it for ages but havent been bothered yet. Maybe you can only trade currency in the league, that way you are forced to craft everything, it doesnt matter about the details at this stage. Thats a very different thing because its not just the same game with more shit dropping and social play disabled, both of which have strong negatives to them. I dunno if we are talking small week/2 week ladders, 4 months, perms, but the general idea is solid if its about something different for everyone, not just an easier mode for people who dont want to trade.

I think theres better ways of addressing the problems you guys have than an sfl. But you guys need to be aware too that if a crafting ladder was set up, people are still going to have more gear than us, higher levels characters, more orbs etc. No matter what GGG do they will never change that unless you remove the scope for anyone to be better than we are, and thats making a casual, shitty, easy game, theyre never going to do that and if you enjoy challenging games I know you have to agree with that being a bad idea.


IGN: Chapterhouse
IGN: Alkad_Mzu
IGN: Fat_Dorothy
IGN: Fat_Steve
"
iamstryker wrote:
"
radmanvr wrote:


GGG says I challenge you to play hardcore and in return you get more drops.


What are you even talking about? Ambush is a softcore league. hardcore leagues do not get more drops.

"
If SFL were to happen it would be because antisocial introverts with a condition do not want to socialize so they whine for a no trade league and on top of that want buff drop rates.
This screams "I am special so gimme this, gimme that"

That's what my issue is with the whole thing.


Since when is trading=socializing in this game? A SFL can be done WITH partying enabled which is the vast majority of socializing.

Again you stick with the idea that SFL people want an easier game. A SFL would be more difficult even with buffed drop rates so this has nothing to do with wanting more stuff. Trading is the easiest way to play. If you want to make fun of playing easy then make fun of your own league.



SFL cannot have party because its self found only not other people find and I pick up league or I find and other people pick up league. Self found can only be solo unless they completely recode how drop works while in a party.
Last edited by radmanvr on April 21, 2014 4:19 PM
"
LSN wrote:


Furthermore your argumentation is like: You like the idea of a SFL (for whatever reason) and because others like it too (for reasons, that I have invalidated and they have been deluded about) you don't care about anything else than just your egoistic demand.


You know as well as me that 80-90% of people in this thread and poll believe that they will get better drops from a SFL. As this is unlikely to happen these people are deluded by wrong facts.

In fact these people just want better drops (as all casuals in every game like this want to) and therefore support the idea of a SFL. Now while these people are deluded, you both delude about the fact that your poll is falsyfied all through.


Still waiting on a single fact.
iamstryker- 83 Witch--------------IamDeadly- 78 Shadow
IamFoeHammer- 83 Templar-----IamScorned- 85 Witch
IAMFIREWALKER- 80 Witch-------TheOneScorned 75 Scion
IAMJuggernaut- 77 Duelist-------IamARCangel 62 witch
IamSPARTACUSx- 90 Mara--------IamEntropy 85 Duelist

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