Summoners please read.

(quote)
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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Asmosis wrote:
Changing the supports for any skill should affect all CURRENT instances of the skill as well as future casts.
No, it shouldn't. That would lead to always summoning with no supports, then adding supports afterwards to increase their damage/life/etc at no penalty since you already paid the mana cost without an multipliers on it.

Mana reservations skills are a special case, but in general, a skill has the effect you paid for - which is the supports on it when you cast the skill - and it should continue to work that way.


everyone conviniently tries to ignore it because it interferes with their idea of 'exploit', its hilarious(/quote)

MarkGGG is right, the solution suggested by Asmosis is also exploitable. The proper solution is to make a cost check whenever a support is changed, added or removed: if the cost has changed, the effect of the skill should be nullified (in the summoner case, the summons should be removed).

His post doesn't say that snapshotting isn't a shitty mechanic, what his post says is that Asmosis suggestion sucks, which it does.
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Last edited by mazul on January 21, 2014 5:33 PM
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mazul wrote:
(quote)
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Mark_GGG wrote:
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Asmosis wrote:
Changing the supports for any skill should affect all CURRENT instances of the skill as well as future casts.
No, it shouldn't. That would lead to always summoning with no supports, then adding supports afterwards to increase their damage/life/etc at no penalty since you already paid the mana cost without an multipliers on it.

Mana reservations skills are a special case, but in general, a skill has the effect you paid for - which is the supports on it when you cast the skill - and it should continue to work that way.


everyone conviniently tries to ignore it because it interferes with their idea of 'exploit', its hilarious(/quote)

MarkGGG is right, the solution suggested by Asmosis is also exploitable. The proper solution is to make a cost check whenever a support is changed, added or removed: if the cost has changed, the effect of the skill should be nullified (in the summoner case, the summons should be removed).

His post doesn't say that snapshotting isn't a shitty mechanic, what his post says is that Asmosis suggestion sucks, which it does.

fair enough, but the post i quoted about socket mapping clearly refers only to socket mapping

if you play this game long enough and understand the mechanics, you realize theres 3 stages to 'snapshot'

1. actual snapshot of skill, ie spectres and their supports. this is what marks post Ive cited talks about. imo this wont be changed for a while
2. bonuses from gear. this is chober chaber and sidhebreath. this will probably changed down the road to be dynamic, just like matua tupuna. from what I understand, matua tupuna was easy to change because bonus was to auras, not minion stats
3. socket mapping. for some reason, initial coding doesnt check all links or colors. this results in being able to map 6L skill to 4L or even 2 3L skills due how to sockets are numbered and how links are checked. this will probably changed sooner than later when technical limitations will be resolved

part 3 is the part everyone is citing, not realizing its only ONE part of snapshot, and the one that with proper gear (6L) doesn't change summoners powers.
Last edited by grepman on January 21, 2014 5:51 PM
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Edhelaneth wrote:
Snapshot is an exploit, so, for me, yes: I'd trade snapshot for minions that don't disappear at log out.

/signed


not an exploit. in fact you can consider it an integral part of the game, there is literally no way a summoner could function without snap shoting.

not with the current power level of summons. not by a long shot.


you would get through norm cruel and the first two acts of merci just fine without snap shotting,

but once you get into act 3 , you dont have uber stacked minions , you are going to get rolled .



snapshotting is no way different than the malachai/covenant exploit that was patched. It's an exploit and will one day get patched as well.

op, i agree
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and honestly, mazul, if its implemented in a way youre suggesting, it will be the worst of both worlds. we'd have no dynamic spectres, when non-minion skill users can easily swap gems mid-fight or mid-map. we'd still basically have snapshot that is firmly limited.

thats way worse than dynamic spectres/zombies.

you basically HAVE to get 2/3/4 completely SAME spectres and zombies

you cant have a BM, evangelist and flame sentinel party. it becomes a boring must have 2/3/4 of a kind with same supports party.
Last edited by grepman on January 21, 2014 6:05 PM
/signed
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grepman wrote:
and honestly, mazul, if its implemented in a way youre suggesting, it will be the worst of both worlds. we'd have no dynamic spectres, when non-minion skill users can easily swap gems mid-fight or mid-map. we'd still basically have snapshot that is firmly limited.

thats way worse than dynamic spectres/zombies.

you basically HAVE to get 2/3/4 completely SAME spectres and zombies

you cant have a BM, evangelist and flame sentinel party. it becomes a boring must have 2/3/4 of a kind with same supports party.


Have you ever played another build? It is basically:

1 Aoe Skill, 1 single dmg skill, 1 curse skill, 1 movement skill, 1 portal skill. That's basically it.

Sometimes you switch out 1 gem if bad reflect map.
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yes ive played other builds. when my wander does a boss i take off my lmp off power siphon. spectral throw is the same thing. im a very poor player by std standards in terms of wealth, so dmg loss of lmp is quite signficant to me. i also do maps solo so its not a biggie to go to town and completely change gear, flasks and gems for a boss.

people want spectre diversity, ggg is adding new skill to make us choose between spectres on demand...and you want to limit us to x clones of same spectre. cmon man !
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grepman wrote:
yes ive played other builds. when my wander does a boss i take off my lmp off power siphon. spectral throw is the same thing. im a very poor player by std standards in terms of wealth, so dmg loss of lmp is quite signficant to me. i also do maps solo so its not a biggie to go to town and completely change gear, flasks and gems for a boss.

people want spectre diversity, ggg is adding new skill to make us choose between spectres on demand...and you want to limit us to x clones of same spectre. cmon man !


I don't mind spectre diversity if it is implemented properly. The current snapshot method is lazy design at best, exploit at worst.
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Last edited by mazul on January 21, 2014 6:52 PM
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mazul wrote:
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grepman wrote:
yes ive played other builds. when my wander does a boss i take off my lmp off power siphon. spectral throw is the same thing. im a very poor player by std standards in terms of wealth, so dmg loss of lmp is quite signficant to me. i also do maps solo so its not a biggie to go to town and completely change gear, flasks and gems for a boss.

people want spectre diversity, ggg is adding new skill to make us choose between spectres on demand...and you want to limit us to x clones of same spectre. cmon man !


I don't mind spectre diversity if it is implemented properly. The current snapshot method is lazy design at best, exploit at worst.
all Im sayin is I dont like your solution, as it will severely limit the fun of a spec people already deem boring.
This won't work either. If you gems level, there may be a mana increase. Do you suggest every time one of these gems level, your horde is disbanded.....


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mazul wrote:


everyone conviniently tries to ignore it because it interferes with their idea of 'exploit', its hilarious(/quote)

MarkGGG is right, the solution suggested by Asmosis is also exploitable. The proper solution is to make a cost check whenever a support is changed, added or removed: if the cost has changed, the effect of the skill should be nullified (in the summoner case, the summons should be removed).

His post doesn't say that snapshotting isn't a shitty mechanic, what his post says is that Asmosis suggestion sucks, which it does.