Depends how you interpret "viable." You can complete the game on merciless without trading and get to fairly high levels (I made it to 85 in a month before quitting) playing purely self-found. However, that's not really what the game is about. The point of an ARPG isn't to complete the campaign, it's to build up wealth and a strong character through long-term play, and that's where self-found completely collapses due to the absurd scarcity of good gear and currency.
All of PoE's depth is gated behind excessive trading. You can forget about crafting, about any build that requires a specific high-level unique, about getting to the later endgame maps, and anything else that can be considered the real endgame of PoE. These things very literally are not available to a self-found player. Sure, you could be unrealistically lucky and find the right combination of severeal ultra-rare items required to properly run one of the really worthwhile builds, but this is so improbable that the possibility barely deserves to be acknowledged.
All of these things are only realistically possible by engaging not just in trading but in heavy, constant engrossment in the game's economy. The amount of currency it takes to actually craft a worthwhile item is absurd, we're talking about wealth that you wouldn't be able to find yourself if you played the same character for an entire year. Likewise, a self-found player is unlikely to ever get past level 74 maps, and will probably never be able to do regular farming runs of any map level above 70. To do so requires an investment of chaos orbs and chisels that can't possibly be sustained in any other way than to spend considerable time every day selling all your loot to other players.
This is what we don't like. It's not just that we're staunchly against the idea trading, it's that the facilities for trading are so terrible in this game. It takes so long and is so unsupported that we'd rather not play the game at all if that's the alternative. The game isn't good enough if you don't trade, and the game's trading system isn't good enough to demand that everyone makes extensive use of it. It's not unreasonable to demand that a game is either fully playable without trading or has adequate trading facilities, but neither is the case in PoE.
To be a self-found player is very much to be a second-rate player, and now that GGG have begun to officially shun and denounce this playstyle, it's hard to feel anything but unwanted. They haven't just ignored us, they've plainly announced that they're against our chosen style of play and refuse to support it in any way. It's frankly appalling to see a company treat its customers so poorly, especially since we're not asking for something unreasonable -- on the contrary, we're asking for something that should really be there already.
Depends how you interpret "viable." You can complete the game on merciless without trading and get to fairly high levels (I made it to 85 in a month before quitting) playing purely self-found. However, that's not really what the game is about. The point of an ARPG isn't to complete the campaign, it's to build up wealth and a strong character through long-term play, and that's where self-found completely collapses due to the absurd scarcity of good gear and currency.
All of PoE's depth is gated behind excessive trading. You can forget about crafting, about any build that requires a specific high-level unique, about getting to the later endgame maps, and anything else that can be considered the real endgame of PoE. These things very literally are not available to a self-found player. Sure, you could be unrealistically lucky and find the right combination of severeal ultra-rare items required to properly run one of the really worthwhile builds, but this is so improbable that the possibility barely deserves to be acknowledged.
All of these things are only realistically possible by engaging not just in trading but in heavy, constant engrossment in the game's economy. The amount of currency it takes to actually craft a worthwhile item is absurd, we're talking about wealth that you wouldn't be able to find yourself if you played the same character for an entire year. Likewise, a self-found player is unlikely to ever get past level 74 maps, and will probably never be able to do regular farming runs of any map level above 70. To do so requires an investment of chaos orbs and chisels that can't possibly be sustained in any other way than to spend considerable time every day selling all your loot to other players.
This is what we don't like. It's not just that we're staunchly against the idea trading, it's that the facilities for trading are so terrible in this game. It takes so long and is so unsupported that we'd rather not play the game at all if that's the alternative. The game isn't good enough if you don't trade, and the game's trading system isn't good enough to demand that everyone makes extensive use of it. It's not unreasonable to demand that a game is either fully playable without trading or has adequate trading facilities, but neither is the case in PoE.
To be a self-found player is very much to be a second-rate player, and now that GGG have begun to officially shun and denounce this playstyle, it's hard to feel anything but unwanted. They haven't just ignored us, they've plainly announced that they're against our chosen style of play and refuse to support it in any way. It's frankly appalling to see a company treat its customers so poorly, especially since we're not asking for something unreasonable -- on the contrary, we're asking for something that should really be there already.
Jakabov pretty much summed up most of my feelings about this game in a nutshell. Out of the countless RPGs/ARPGs I've played, PoE is one of the few (potentially the only one for me) that seems to be actively shunning and punishing self-found, solo players. It's almost like the devs are trying to push MMO-styled ideals of heavy group play and reliance on such things and even balancing around them while forsaking the solo players and again, punishing them for their choice.
began playing D3, used the AH. Reached Inferno (long before the nerfs), made my way through Inferno. But it didnt feel rewarding..at all.
At one Point I donated all my gear, donated all my currency, deleted the chars and played selffound all the way. And I had such a blast. It felt THAT much rewarding finding a little upgrade. A few DPS more. More resists. Anything.
And it really was good knowing that I reached this all by myself, and only by myself.
I play PoE these days. Started in closed Beta, played in open beta, playing Nemesis now.
First I played selffound..met some guys, had fun with them, they progressed fast using tradechannel, I died. Not a Problem, but I got impatient - wanted to reach what they reached, wanted to play with them, wanted to finally see some maps (havent seen any until yesterday :D) and i knew the gearing walls to come when playing selffound. Began to use the tradechannel, progressed.
Now with all the currency in my stash, all the levelling items it is no problem anymore to Play safe. To powerlevel a toon. Reach endgame.
But it simply doesnt feel rewarding, it doesnt feel right.
Dont know what to do at this point. I WANT to play selffound, I really want this. But I KNOW from my (partly) selffoundish experience over the last 1,5 years that it simply is depressing at some Point, you hit some gearing walls in this game which are unbelievable hard to bypass solo without trading. Dont know whether I have the patience to try once more :-)
Playing with others becomes necessary for selffounders, as soloing the content when hitting a gearing wall becomes nearly impossible . But playing with Traders is not what I finally want. I simply dont want to be carried by Traders, which happens when I Party up with traders as a selffounder.
Meanwhile I think this game simply is not and doesnt want to be a game for selffounders. Thats in a way ok for me, but I´m searching such a game in the long run. Hope PoE will give me enough possibilities to successfully play my style in the future, I really hope so. Selffound league for example would be a good Option. Would love this, would pay for this if necessary.
Last edited by Partypapst#3836 on Nov 19, 2013, 10:26:29 AM
Yeah I think it's reached that point for me again. I don't even mind trading, though I do want to play self-found occasionally. Unfortunately I don't like trading in joke leagues. So I'll probably be back when there's a good self-found league or custom/paid leagues.
began playing D3, used the AH. Reached Inferno (long before the nerfs), made my way through Inferno. But it didnt feel rewarding..at all.
The funny thing is, even in 'AH D3', blizzard didn't go to the extent PoE did.
I played both self found.
One thing D3 never did, was gate content behind grouping or trading. People said they did, but really, they didn't. You could always face content at your challenge level or above in order to attempt to find better gear to progress further. It just took time.
PoE is similar until end game. That is where it goes tits up. At end game you are gated from challenging content. Accessing it requires trading and/or grouping, which in turn trivialise it.
Alternatively, one can still open these gates without trading or grouping but it takes a loooooong time and a lot of luck. That's all great, but the kicker is, that loooooong time is spent doing non-challenging content as that is all there is access to. It takes so long farming faceroll, that one actually out gears the gated content from high rolled low-tier rares and uniques.
This is the most bizarre design that ever could be called 'hardcore aRPG'.
I add my voice to those who request a self-found league.
I'm ready to pay for this SF league, I don't care.
I don't think the D3 expansion will cost too much. But if you are actually after a loot find aRPG, an aRPG that rewards for killing beasties, that offers progression, end game for everyone who thinks they are up to it and actually allows hardcore aRPG playing, no short cuts, I'd be looking there.
This is, and always will be, a path of least resistance, casual, instant grats, faceroll, shopping sim with 6 man groups squashing content that could have been a challenge if not for the model.
I honestly wouldn't even expect to be able to create a real aRPG loot-find mode when/if the paid leagues happen. It would hinder the pretence that is the current 'aRPG for hardcore gamers by hardcore gamers' (lol, I can't even type that without cracking up laughing).
D3 RoS is the return to the genre, as absurd as that would have sounded a year ago.
You're absolutely right. Wouldn't have believed it just a few weeks ago. It seems as if D3 and PoE will switch places, at least in regard to loot/drop rates and progression. Not getting my hopes up or down yet, RoS is still months away.
Given that TL2 and (even if still in alpha) GD got the loot right, it's safe to assume that it's the "online" part that spawns such abysmal monstrosities as "balance" and "economy" in a game (even worse: balanced economy). At the very least, we should be grateful that it is not advertised as a logical necessity yet.
Last edited by skewfields#5600 on Nov 19, 2013, 10:43:14 AM
You're absolutely right. Wouldn't have believed it just a few weeks ago. It seems as if D3 and PoE will switch places, at least in regard to loot/drop rates.
Switch places is exactly what will happen.
PoE is about to get a massive boost in players when the D3 shoppers loose the AH and BtA legendary items come in. There is one main attraction in PoE, instant gratification.
We have all seen the 'go back to D3, casual' and 'D3 AH -> that way'.
Well, we are about to see such as 'go play path of shopping, this is a loot finder'.
It's quite a hilarious flip-turn, it really is. :)
I add my voice to those who request a self-found league.
I'm ready to pay for this SF league, I don't care.
I don't think the D3 expansion will cost too much. But if you are actually after a loot find aRPG, an aRPG that rewards for killing beasties, that offers progression, end game for everyone who thinks they are up to it and actually allows hardcore aRPG playing, no short cuts, I'd be looking there.
This is, and always will be, a path of least resistance, casual, instant grats, faceroll, shopping sim with 6 man groups squashing content that could have been a challenge if not for the model.
I honestly wouldn't even expect to be able to create a real aRPG loot-find mode when/if the paid leagues happen. It would hinder the pretence that is the current 'aRPG for hardcore gamers by hardcore gamers' (lol, I can't even type that without cracking up laughing).
D3 RoS is the return to the genre, as absurd as that would have sounded a year ago.
I play only hardcore, solo, selfdrop.
Please don't talk with me about least resistance path, casual, instant grats, faceroll, shopping sim. Thank you.
PoE is about to get a massive boost in players when the D3 shoppers loose the AH and BtA legendary items come in. There is one main attraction in PoE, instant gratification.
We have all seen the 'go back to D3, casual' and 'D3 AH -> that way'.
Well, we are about to see such as 'go play path of shopping, this is a loot finder'.
It's quite a hilarious flip-turn, it really is. :)
At the end of the day, though I am sure the bucks I spent on D3 and PoE will help the actual RL economy (the only one that matters, yet it's as unbalanced as hell), I regret I wasn't able to self-find or trade for copies of these rollercoaster games. They're as unpredictable as their RNG :)
I play only hardcore, solo, selfdrop.
Please don't talk with me about least resistance path, casual, instant grats, faceroll, shopping sim. Thank you.
Why?
That doesn't change what it is.
It doesn't change the fact that the game is designed that you will trade and group.
It doesn't change that the challenge at end game will be gated from you.
If you look at my last (?) post, you will see how I said PoE plays out well as a challenging game solo and self found pre end game. It's at end game where it goes to faceroll or gtfo!
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but if you think you have one, all I can say is, you have got an unpleasant surprise coming. Sorry about that.
Casually casual.
Last edited by TheAnuhart#4741 on Nov 19, 2013, 11:09:46 AM
