THERE IS NO REASON WHY POE shouldn't have a CASUAL league

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Redblade wrote:

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Arrowneous wrote:

All the others are just what I've found playing without any trading.

So you chose to not trade and then complain that you have little currency for your time played...

By this logic you should have as close as possible to the IIQ cap to negate your choice to not trade, anything less than that is just asking for a handout because you can't accept the downsides of your personal choice.

The fact of the matter is this:

The game is balanced around trading, not farming.

This is a problem. It's the exact same fucking mistake D3 made and the only thing worse than that is the fact that D3 made the mistake BETTER than PoE has. Trading is a slog and the least fun thing to do in such a game and since it's essentially mandatory to actually make any decent currency to afford to buy - or god forbid, craft - your own things. it has people asking for this kind of thing to be implemented.

So stop playing the "high ground" angle and telling people the way they play is invalid. It's this inane drop balance that's the problem.

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Arrowneous wrote:

Here's my current Anarchy stash as of 9-3-2013:

To get this I have:
level 69 witch
level 56 duelist
level 28 ranger
level 19 marauder

mate, +2000 hours



To get this I have:

level 85 witch
level 77 witch
level 77 witch (yes x2)
level 80 witch
level 69 witch
level 76 duelist
level 76 duelist (yes x2)
level 39 duelist
level 82 ranger
level 84 ranger
level 74 ranger
level 89 marauder
level 60 marauder


and an assortment of 1-25 range characters.

Id doesnt get any better. With a gold economy you amass gold, and then you spend it and get something back. Here you amass orbs, all of which can be exchanged for the other ones, so then you try and spend it to: roll sockets on an item you found, this could take all your orbs and not give you sockets / roll stats on a good socket item you find, this could take all your orbs and not give you stats / roll maps to get some xp, this could take all your orbs and not give you map drops...

its possible, just trying to do things you have to try and do, that you can lose everything and get nowhere at any point. ^ you think Im going to mf farm to get back a good stash of orbs? fuck that shit, either they fix the game or I quit, enough with the fucking mf farming already.

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iamstryker wrote:

If your going broke trying to get a 4L then your doing something wrong. If your resources are that bad then don't waste fusings trying to get one. Buy a 4L from the traders or find one on the ground and then either use alch/chaos or alts to get some decent mods. You could also ask to buy a cheap one in trade chat. That way your not gambling.

so once he has wasted his fusing, go the other way and waste all his chaos instead, then his alc + scours, then he can kick himself for not trading. Yes yes we know where he went wrong and what the best method is, the only method in fairness that isnt a lottery ticket, the point is questioning if this is the right situation to build into a game and if something should be done about the fact its trade or buy a lottery ticket. People understand the reality that is why they are posting about it.

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Ishiga25 wrote:

The fact of the matter is this:

The game is balanced around trading, not farming.

This is a problem. It's the exact same fucking mistake D3 made and the only thing worse than that is the fact that D3 made the mistake BETTER than PoE has. Trading is a slog and the least fun thing to do in such a game and since it's essentially mandatory to actually make any decent currency to afford to buy - or god forbid, craft - your own things. it has people asking for this kind of thing to be implemented.

So stop playing the "high ground" angle and telling people the way they play is invalid. It's this inane drop balance that's the problem.

1. Imagine you are playing with a friend and trade is fully disabled. "Hey, look, I've found this great armor piece. It is useless for me but perfect for your build. But I will not give it to you, because we can not trade." Awkward situation, isn't it?

2. You are exaggerating when you say that trade is mandatory to play this game. It is not. Unless you believe that you absolutely should be able to solo lvl 77 maps. There are builds that will bring you to low level maps with self-found gear. Yes, there are some very strong but very gear-dependent builds. But if you choose to play such build and not to trade at the same time - it is your own fault.

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Ishiga25 wrote:

The fact of the matter is this:

The game is balanced around trading, not farming.

This is a problem. It's the exact same fucking mistake D3 made and the only thing worse than that is the fact that D3 made the mistake BETTER than PoE has. Trading is a slog and the least fun thing to do in such a game and since it's essentially mandatory to actually make any decent currency to afford to buy - or god forbid, craft - your own things. it has people asking for this kind of thing to be implemented.

So stop playing the "high ground" angle and telling people the way they play is invalid. It's this inane drop balance that's the problem.

I run 74 IIQ and have in the last week alone had 3 exalts and around 25-40 chaos dropped, he choses to not equip IIQ to compensate he's choice of not trading and then complain he doesn't get enough currency when there is a way to boost currency drops. (at least I assume he doesn't based on he's currency)

I'm not claiming any high ground here telling people how to play, I'm saying there is a mechanic that allows him to get better currency drops and as long as he doesn't take advantage of it nor chose to trade he's in no position to complain.

My stash to illustrate the difference:

Tab 1
Tab 2
Tab 3

I do some trading but not much and waste a lot of alts on crafting certain items and I have spent most of my jeweller's and fusings to 6S/5L a couple of items.

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stargazer wrote:

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Ishiga25 wrote:

The fact of the matter is this:

The game is balanced around trading, not farming.

This is a problem. It's the exact same fucking mistake D3 made and the only thing worse than that is the fact that D3 made the mistake BETTER than PoE has. Trading is a slog and the least fun thing to do in such a game and since it's essentially mandatory to actually make any decent currency to afford to buy - or god forbid, craft - your own things. it has people asking for this kind of thing to be implemented.

So stop playing the "high ground" angle and telling people the way they play is invalid. It's this inane drop balance that's the problem.

2. You are exaggerating when you say that trade is mandatory to play this game. It is not. Unless you believe that you absolutely should be able to solo lvl 77 maps. There are builds that will bring you to low level maps with self-found gear. Yes, there are some very strong but very gear-dependent builds. But if you choose to play such build and not to trade at the same time - it is your own fault.

He is exaggerating to the point of looking clueless about the game. No way do you need to trade to trade to craft or progress. You need to grind and optimize your gear and skill setup for what you are doing.

Make the damn casual league so we have a place to point to when people are asking for increased currency drop.

for me a casual player is someone who has limited time to play and is not fixated on getting best stuff as fast as possible. Casual players will enjoy the content and progress slowly. They don't have the same expectations as no-life/hardcore/whatever you call it gamers have. they will play for a while and then move on to the next game. there is no need to cater to them, since they will enjoy it the way it is cause they don't expect to get the best stuff after playing for a week for 2 hours a day.

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stargazer wrote:

The more I think about it the more I understand that I'm totally against "casual" league.

Main point

This game is about finding good items. If you can gain everything you want too easily it will become boring.

Finding a rare good item is fun because this item is rare. If the item stops being rare - the fun is spoiled. A new league with increased drops will decrease rarity of items. I'm talking here about perceived rarity, not actual. Actual rarity will remain the same for other leagues, but it is perceived rarity that makes finding items fun.

I guess all the hardcore players are clearly missing the point. The casual league should only be used by PoE fans that have a limited time to play. Your argument is is only valid if a normal or hardcore player were to play the casual league. Yes, with the reduced number of hours required you would get the rare items faster, reach the end game maps quicker, and thus get bored sooner. But the whole point of asking for a casual league in the first place is for we that love to play PoE but don't have the physical hours available to grind, grind, and grind to be able to reach the higher levels and obtain some of the better rares or uniques in less than years of real life because we only have a small time available to play PoE each week. So no one who likes the current amount of grinding time to find great loot and currency should ever play a casual league. It would only be a league for time limited PoE players.

I wonder why the concept of "only play the casual league if you have limited play time" is such a hard sell. All normal or hardcore players should never play it. You would think that the HC crowd would stop using this argument against a casual league. Of course some one playing 40+ hours a week would zoom right through and then be bored. But they should never ever play this league. A casual league was never asked for to replace any of the current and future leagues but as an additional league for the time limited but PoE lover of this arpg.

Got that HC players? Stop saying it would be too easy. Duh, for HC players it would be too easy. That's why you should never play it. Same reason I only played Anarchy and Never played Onslaught. I don't have the time.

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Redblade wrote:

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Arrowneous wrote:

All the others are just what I've found playing without any trading.

So you chose to not trade and then complain that you have little currency for your time played...

By this logic you should have as close as possible to the IIQ cap to negate your choice to not trade, anything less than that is just asking for a handout because you can't accept the downsides of your personal choice.

Of course it is my choice not to trade. Of course that means I have less currency for time played because I don't have over 200 MF. The need to have very high MF is also my choice. As I level up I must decide:

A. Do I use this because is has good IIR or IIQ but lousy other stats?, or
B. Do I use this item for the resists or elemental damage (or other buffs) but no IIR or IIQ?

This is assuming I even get drops that have a good IIR stat on it. We all have to make these choices and that's good. Getting gear that would give me both 75% to all resists and over 200% IIR and IIQ at the same time in Merciless difficulty would make PoE too easy. I have no problem with that.

What all this discussion boils down to is a simple examination of time. For fans of PoE that have limited time to play, should it take real years of time playing PoE to get to where the HC no-lifers get to in a few months? Is it necessary to put everyone in the same time frame even though we all have varying amounts of time we can play PoE each week?

And then we have to ask, with our limited free time to play PoE, is the game time required to get to the endgame worth the investment of real time spread out over years? For some people the answer is yes. They are willing to play PoE knowing it will take them years to get to where a player playing more hours each week will get to in a few months. But for a lot of people I'd wager that the answer is no. Real life trumps any game any day for most people and thus PoE (or any game for that matter) is only played when our free time and desire to play allows. If we understand the nature of PoE as it is in OB and the grind time factor, and still say "yes, I am willing to commit to a multi-year time line to get to the endgame" then some people will play PoE. But I'm sure there is a large quantity of would be players that after testing the PoE waters are saying "great game that GGG has produced but I can't/don't want to commit this much time to it" and so never play PoE. GGG is missing out on that segment of the arpg market right now.

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Arrowneous wrote:

What all this discussion boils down to is a simple examination of time. For fans of PoE that have limited time to play, should it take real years of time playing PoE to get to where the HC no-lifers get to in a few months? Is it necessary to put everyone in the same time frame even though we all have varying amounts of time we can play PoE each week?

Yeah, it definitely boils down to this: you want everything that takes few month for HC no-lifers to achieve, and you want to get it in a tiny fraction of time they spent.

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Arrowneous wrote:

"yes, I am willing to commit to a multi-year time line to get to the endgame"

It takes less than 50 hours of playtime to reach endgame (maps). How many minutes each week are you planning to spend on PoE if you need "multi-year time line"? Around 20 minutes a week? Really?

By the way, why don't they do short versions of movies and series so you could watch them all with your limited time? And what about short annotations for books so you could read all these new books some no-lifer bookworm can read in a few month?

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Arrowneous wrote:

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Main point

This game is about finding good items. If you can gain everything you want too easily it will become boring.

Finding a rare good item is fun because this item is rare. If the item stops being rare - the fun is spoiled. A new league with increased drops will decrease rarity of items. I'm talking here about perceived rarity, not actual. Actual rarity will remain the same for other leagues, but it is perceived rarity that makes finding items fun.

I guess all the hardcore players are clearly missing the point. The casual league should only be used by PoE fans that have a limited time to play. Your argument is is only valid if a normal or hardcore player were to play the casual league.

Let me elaborate on topic of actual and perceived rarity a bit more.

Actual rarity is simply a drop chance. It reflects how hard it is to get this particular item in this particular league.

Perceived rarity is subjective and is about how valuable this particular item feels. Value is not necessary measured in currency equivalent.

For example for me getting Mirror of Kalandra will bring more satisfaction then finding equal amount of exalts because I've seen exalts plenty of times but never had an actual mirror. So perceived rarity of mirror for me is higher than of the exalt equivalent.

Some more general examples. Useless item will have zero perceived rarity even if it is actually rare and have some very well rolled affixes (but in useless combination). On the other hand, uniques are perceived more rare then they actually are, even when they are not very useful.

Once you add league where everything can be obtained in a matter of few days, perceived rarity of items in other leagues will decrease. For one simple reason: you can always go to this league and get everything you want. Finding Mirror of Kalandra will never fill the same after you add league where it can be purchased for few scrolls of wisdom.