THERE IS NO REASON WHY POE shouldn't have a CASUAL league

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Arrowneous wrote:

1. A learn to play issue?
 True. If I could play PoE at a caliper of the likes of Kripp then there would never need to be a casual league. If I didn't have to work and could play PoE 8+ hours every day I wouldn't want a casual league. If I had the time to learn to play better there'd be no need for a casual league. If everyone was the same we wouldn't need so much variety in our lives . If...if...if... The real world isn't that way. There is no such thing as a one size fits all.

Learning to play the game has very little to do with time, stop blaming the game for being to hard and your job for taking up time. There are plenty of players with full time jobs that do just fine and play end game.

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Arrowneous wrote:

2. Why keep rehashing the stale argument that a casual league will cause the good PoE players to use it, devour all the content, and then complain that it's boring. That's not the fault of the casual league, that's the fault of the better players for being stupid and playing a league they know that they can face roll. I can't stop a good PoE player from playing a casual league, but to do so and then complain they're bored is ludicrous and stupid.

So it's all their fault for being human and choosing the path of least resistance, and I'm not talking about the proper hardcore players but the middle ground players, but it's not your fault at all for not taking the time and effort to learn the game enough to conquer it. Again stop blaming the game for your own inadequates.

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Arrowneous wrote:

3. If there are many good arpg players that want to be lazy and play a casual PoE league they have only themselves to blame if they then find that boring. Stay in the standard or hardcore leagues. It can't be stated any more succinctly. Stupidity or laziness isn't a valid arguing point against having a casual league.

Much as your unwillingness to learn to play the game isn't a valid argument for dumbing the game down to fit your needs.

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Arrowneous wrote:

4. Again you use the false logic of you personally getting to level 83 in Onslaught in not much more time then I have played to get to level 69 in Merciless Anarchy so that means PoE is balanced correctly. All that proves is that you are a much better player than I am. But so what? That is a comment about your superior playing ability and not a valid reason against a casual league. That makes as much sense as me stating that I'm a better driver so everyone else should be as good as I am or else quit driving. In the arpg world there will always be players of different skill levels and to say that everyone should play at your high level of ability or quit playing smacks of "my way or the highway" mentality.

It's not a false logic at all, it shows that it's possible to achieve both wealth and higher level within that very time frame, I should add that I only run docks with the character hence my leveling past 78 is extremely slow, if I where to have mapped instead I'd be over 90 by now.

Even accounting for player skill you should still be able to get to around 75-80 in that time if you stop blaming the game for being to hard and instead figure out why you struggle with it. If others can so can you, it's all a question of mindset.

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Arrowneous wrote:

5. I'm asking for a league to ease the time sink requirements for the time limited PoE player. Plain and simple. Again, and again, and yet again the argument against a casual league is being thown in my face. To quote you " ...being easy to "finish" and just plain boring." Why keep stating this when you and anyone with a high level of PoE playing ability should never ever play a casual league. You are again trying to make your point based on your level of playing ability. Have you ever considered that there may be millions of would be PoE players that are less skilled than you, are never ever going to be as skilled as you, and either will never have the free time resources to play PoE as much as you or never want to commit that much free time to playing PoE to attempt to get to your level of playing ability. Should they all be denied the opportunity to play PoE and experience all the great things it has to offer to an arpg player just because they aren't as good a player as you?

I'll say it once again, it's human nature to take the path of least resistance and a lot of players would take that path simply because it's there. Why do you think WoW's player numbers started to drop catastrophically after LFR was introduced...

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Arrowneous wrote:

I will gladly concede to the point that GGG created an arpg that they wanted to play. It's their creation and they can always choose to make it any way they want. It's also within my right to agree with the poster of this thread that a casual league, while not what the devs would like to play to get their daily PoE gaming fix, is never to be ruled out just because they personally could face roll through it and get bored in that league. I'm sure right now that many players don't play standard league for that same reason and use the derogatory name "softcore" to refer to it. They see standard league as too easy and boring. By your criteria should GGG eliminate standard league also?

No I think standard league is fine and the compromise you're asking for, it's just not as accommodating as you are hoping for.

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Arrowneous wrote:

I didn't post this topic so there has to be many more PoE players with a similar view favoring a casual league. I'm also positive that there are many more "casual" arpg players that would love to play PoE and buy stash tabs or pets or other bling if only the time requirements weren't so steep.

Much as there are many players who play PoE because it's a complex game aimed for the hardcore player, personally I'd leave and never look back if the game turned in to a D3 clone, which is basically what you're asking for in some regards.

just go back to ur no skill ah3 plz

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Redblade wrote:

Learning to play the game has very little to do with time, stop blaming the game for being to hard and your job for taking up time. There are plenty of players with full time jobs that do just fine and play end game.

That's a strange comment. I always thought practice makes perfect so the more time I play PoE the better I should get. That is very true. I started playing PoE last November in CB. I have a trail of dead and deleted HC characters and the more I play the fewer times I'm dieing. That still doesn't negate for me and all other arpg players that will never attain the skill level you have the desire to play through to the endgame without it taking over a half year of real life. So in it's current form PoE is a leasure time activity and not all consuming of my leasure time. So other players with a full time job are committing a lot of their free time to playing PoE. That's their personal choice. I still see this disagreement as a "one size fits all" argument. Since everyone is different PoE needs more leagues as a "one size fits all" approach to PoE will leave a lot of arpg players out.

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Redblade wrote:

So it's all their fault for being human and choosing the path of least resistance, and I'm not talking about the proper hardcore players but the middle ground players, but it's not your fault at all for not taking the time and effort to learn the game enough to conquer it. Again stop blaming the game for your own inadequates.

Absolutely, I admit to not being a great player. Hell, I hadn't even done group play until I convinced my 2 best friends to form an Anarchy trio for the summer. I've learned a lot over the summer on group play strategies. That part of PoE is great (minus the desync part) so the more I play the more I learn the PoE game mechanics and the better I become. No argument there. The disagreement in these posts is over how much of a timespan is require based on my own playing skills (not yours) to take and advance a build from the beach to the final Merciless endgame boss. Where you easily do it in under 100 hours for me let's say I need 400 hours. At the playing rate of 20 hours a week that equals 20 weeks or approx. 5 months. I don't just play 1 build through to the end, I play and experiment with different builds to keep my interest high. Yes, that is my choice to not take a single build and play it though exclusively to the endgame. So a build that may take you a month to reach the end will take me considerably longer.
Yes, it is absolutely the middle of the PoE road player's fault that if there is a casual league and they choose it due to it being easier, and then complete the 3 difficulty levels and become bored. No one puts a gun to your head and forces you to play a specific league. Again I state, laziness in not a valid excuse for denying a casual league. I would play a casual league not out of my own laziness, but by my own time limited play would like to experience the endgame with more than 1 character every 5 or 6 months. Increase that time estimate with each new act that GGG rolls out.

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Redblade wrote:

Much as your unwillingness to learn to play the game isn't a valid argument for dumbing the game down to fit your needs.

I never ever stated any unwillingness to learn the game. My only comments are on the timespan necessary to learn most of PoE based on my limited hours of playing and lesser arpg skills. Since you call a casual league as a "dumbing the game down", why are you giving a rats ass since you will never be playing it? Same as I don't give a rat's ass how much harder the Onslaught league is over regular HC as I'm never playing it. These are separate leagues that increase play choices and you only play the ones you want. One way to play PoE does not fit all.

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Redblade wrote:

It's not a false logic at all, it shows that it's possible to achieve both wealth and higher level within that very time frame, I should add that I only run docks with the character hence my leveling past 78 is extremely slow, if I where to have mapped instead I'd be over 90 by now.

Based on your skill level that's how you see it. Based on a player with 1/4th or 1/5th the skills of yours the time picture is very different. For some arpg players no amount of playing will increase playing ability past a certain point. I used to bowl on 3 leagues and got my average up to just over 200. No amounts of practicing more or playing more would ever get me to the scores the professionals achieve. So with PoE every player will reach a maximum ability. For some that means getting to the endgame in under 100 hours. For others, no amount of PoE knowledge or experience will produce a start to endgame time of under 100 hours. I'm ok with that. As Dirty Harry said in Magnum Force, "A man's got to know his limitations". The casual league is for those of us acknowledging these limitations and not wanting to take and extreme amount of time (timespan, not just total hours) in our lives to reach the endgame.

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Redblade wrote:

Even accounting for player skill you should still be able to get to around 75-80 in that time if you stop blaming the game for being to hard and instead figure out why you struggle with it. If others can so can you, it's all a question of mindset.

Again one size does not fit all. Some people have the talent, some do not. Some people can be professionals at sports or music or other endeavors. Most can not. I'm not trying to deflect blame from myself as to my taking a lot longer to get through Merciless level. I'm only stating that with every ones arpg playing skills being different, a variety of PoE playing choices should be available such as Casual, Standard, HC, and Extreme HC. Somewhere in there the SFL needs a place too. Granted, changing the core standard rule set to create new leagues will take time to tweak the balance so this won't happen overnight, but GGG needs to have it on their "to do" list somewhere.

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Redblade wrote:

Much as there are many players who play PoE because it's a complex game aimed for the hardcore player, personally I'd leave and never look back if the game turned in to a D3 clone, which is basically what you're asking for in some regards.

Where in any of my comments did I ever state I wanted PoE to be a D3 clone? Where in the world is that thought coming from? I hate D3, that's why I'm playing PoE. The HC and Onslaught leagues are for the hardcore player and will always be there (whatever GGG replaces the 4 month leagues with) for that arpg challenge. Adding more leagues does not and never should change the existing leagues.

edit: Crap, I need to play PoE more to be a better player and here I am taking precious time to post. Sigh.

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Redblade wrote:

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Peacebringer wrote:

"My" suggestion could be a paid league, not undermining the whole design.
You can actually do so much to avoid this without a $-league. For example you can add some sort of bonus to other leagues. Getting x% defenses per level 68 character you have in standard. More from HC and so on. 0 bonus from "Casual league". Just one of billion examples if you're creative..

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/

Their game design philosophies seems to be right up your alley...

Yes I know. But they (Blizzard) have really destroyed their reputation with their (D3) game which force(d/s) players to use RMAH to even kill end boss.
We shouldn't talk about their loot system either cause it is more broken than in POE. But I give Blizzard credit for AH (not RMAH). It was a pretty nice try at least eventhough it was completely broken.
I will defenitely check out the expansion (2014 -> 2024?) but I guess they will try to suck out even more money from their customers and if so I'll skip it.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Legatus1982 wrote:

And again, the perfect or 1 in a billion items you are talking about are only marginally better than the godly items people already have.

theyre only marginally better than items that currently cost close to 80 exalts to mirror that people have. Look at the items in this post...

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/313490

People mirror that Carrion Etcher dagger rather than craft one or buy another because... its almost impossible to craft and there isnt another for sale. This item is not a top roll, you realise that? Its not even close to a top roll, the item you are asking to create for next to nothing would eclipse this dagger and everyone in the game could get a dagger thats better than this in under a weeks farming.

Most people will never have a dagger anywhere close to that, or an es chest like that, that is not marginally better than what most people have, thats a 372dps dagger, you are asking for a dagger that probably has more like 450+ dps, I have a character doing 24k damage with a 220 dps dagger... thats huge damage, people are clocking over 100k dps with daggers that are not as good as the Etcher, what you are asking is crazy.


The etcher has..

201% phys
21-37 phys
19% speed

it could have..

249% phys
25-45 phys
27% speed

thats more than a marginal increase, on the best dagger ever, I dont think you understand how far off perfect absolutely insane items are and how much they are worth even missing 48% phys damage. Every time someone wants that dagger miraio makes 4 exalts, its a cash cow, its value is astronomical, well beyond 100 exalts.

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Legatus1982 wrote:

It may cost you 50 exalts to mirror such an item, but the actual value per damage is not 50 exalts

there is no 'value per damage', value is based on demand and scarcity, in your system the carrion etcher, possibly the most amazing dagger ever found, would have absolutely no value because anyone could make a better dagger with orbs they could farm and trade for in very little time. You are talking about every single hour played on every single account resulting in 1 dagger, and you want a better dagger for everyone who grinds 50 hours? You dont think that would total destroy looting items and gear progression if 2 million accounts playing for 8 months cant find a dagger as good as you want from a relatively simple vendor recipe?

So after all this happens, casual league opens and people get this dagger with ~30% more damage than the "best dagger found yet" that people mirror for 40 exalts after a week with 10 chaos and 10 divines and now instead of doing 100k dps with flicker they are doing 150k dps.

GAME NAO BROKEN???????

No, the game will still be just fine and the only likely outcome of this is the guy dies more to reflect, unless he also uses 10 chaos and 10 divines on EVERY OTHER PIECE OF GEAR and now instead of 9k es you have 12k es. People are still getting 1 shotted with shock stacks by crit rhoas in maps with 9k es, and the more damage you deal the more you reflect to yourself.

GAME NAO BROKEN???????????????????????????????

No, the game will still be just fine and you are being way over dramatic about how these changes will affect the game. I think being able to craft the perfect rare for your build with some alchs, 10 chaos and 10 divines is perfectly acceptable to hardcore let alone casual league. You will still die to things and there will still be challenging maps and the only diff will be the amount of time it takes to farm good items.

You really need to step back and think about what you're saying from an objective point of view. The fact that nobody has found a dagger as good as the one you're proposing someone may choose to craft with 10 chaos won't make the game broken or bad. It will most probably result in the game being fun for a lot more people who don't want to spend 1billion hours and never get their build's best dagger.
I really can't come up with a reason why you'd be averted to someone maxing their gear out at level 72ish and after using 100-120 chaos and 100-120 divines. People are getting 1shotted to various mechanics even with the godliest of gear. There are still plenty of other builds to try and 120 chaos and 120 divines is not something you find in a couple hours. There are still other classes and skill combos to try and I don't think making it possible to do everything the game has to offer in the average man's lifetime is a bad thing.

I'm sorry you feel that people should invest thousands of hours into this game and still never see even one character at level 100 with perfect stats on all their gear, but not everybody feels that way.

As for the build itself here's a quote where the creator answers some questions:
QUETIONS-ANSWERS

-Do u recommend this build?
-No
-Why?
-Cause it sucks

So there you have it.

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Arrowneous wrote:

*snip*

You are confusing skill with knowledge and stats, ARPG's are in essence spreadsheet games with pretty graphics. To be able to do content A you need stats X and the knowledge of how to counter the contents dangers, skill only really accounts for handling things borderline of what your characters stats realistically should allow you to do.

Taking on a champ pack of 20 when taking damage from 5 of the would kill you relates to skill.

Not having enough resists, life and not using abilities/flasks fitting for en encounter like crematorium Piety is just a lack of knowledge that can easily be obtained.

This is why you or anyone else should be able to "finish" the game in double the time it takes a reasonably skilled player to do it, even if we make it triple the time you're still seeing end game in 30 hours played.

Now you might choose not to go read up on how to do certain things better or want to figure it out for your self, that's fine I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it is however your choice to experience the game in such way which will make it take up much more time.


As far as you thinking players being stupid for playing a casual league when they don't have to...people are people, they will do it because it's a faster way to get the rewards and the faster the run out of rewards the faster they get bored.

It's not really a conscious decision in most cases and over time accommodating that type of behavior is bad the the game at large. WoW in my eyes is a perfect example of that slippery slope. The current player division is 1:3:9:9 hc:ons:ana:standard if I recall correctly. While I'm fairly sure the 1:3 will remain about the same with your casual league, how many of the 9:9 do you think would stay around there when you can get more currency and high end items by just playing the easier league with higher rewards?

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Redblade wrote:

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Arrowneous wrote:

*snip*

You are confusing skill with knowledge and stats, ARPG's are in essence spreadsheet games with pretty graphics. To be able to do content A you need stats X and the knowledge of how to counter the contents dangers, skill only really accounts for handling things borderline of what your characters stats realistically should allow you to do.

Just because you know what should be done doesn't mean you'll actually do it when the time comes.

Skill=Applied Knowledge

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Novalisk wrote:

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Redblade wrote:

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Arrowneous wrote:

*snip*

You are confusing skill with knowledge and stats, ARPG's are in essence spreadsheet games with pretty graphics. To be able to do content A you need stats X and the knowledge of how to counter the contents dangers, skill only really accounts for handling things borderline of what your characters stats realistically should allow you to do.

Just because you know what should be done doesn't mean you'll actually do it when the time comes.

Skill=Applied Knowledge

True but you can counter that by over leveling and over gearing, or obtaining the knowledge of what you're doing wrong, skill only really helps you take on what's borderline of what you should be able to in the first place. Poor choices in what abilities/flasks to use for certain zones or bosses is just that, poor choices, and has very little to do with skill.