THERE IS NO REASON WHY POE shouldn't have a CASUAL league

"

stargazer wrote:

"yes, I am willing to commit to a multi-year time line to get to the endgame". It takes less than 50 hours of playtime to reach endgame (maps). How many minutes each week are you planning to spend on PoE if you need "multi-year time line"? Around 20 minutes a week? Really?

By the way, why don't they do short versions of movies and series so you could watch them all with your limited time? And what about short annotations for books so you could read all these new books some no-lifer bookworm can read in a few month?

Main point

This game is about finding good items. If you can gain everything you want too easily it will become boring.

Finding a rare good item is fun because this item is rare. If the item stops being rare - the fun is spoiled. A new league with increased drops will decrease rarity of items. I'm talking here about perceived rarity, not actual. Actual rarity will remain the same for other leagues, but it is perceived rarity that makes finding items fun.I guess all the hardcore players are clearly missing the point. The casual league should only be used by PoE fans that have a limited time to play. Your argument is is only valid if a normal or hardcore player were to play the casual league.Let me elaborate on topic of actual and perceived rarity a bit more.

Actual rarity is simply a drop chance. It reflects how hard it is to get this particular item in this particular league.

Perceived rarity is subjective and is about how valuable this particular item feels. Value is not necessary measured in currency equivalent.

For example for me getting Mirror of Kalandra will bring more satisfaction then finding equal amount of exalts because I've seen exalts plenty of times but never had an actual mirror. So perceived rarity of mirror for me is higher than of the exalt equivalent.

Some more general examples. Useless item will have zero perceived rarity even if it is actually rare and have some very well rolled affixes (but in useless combination). On the other hand, uniques are perceived more rare then they actually are, even when they are not very useful.

Once you add league where everything can be obtained in a matter of few days, perceived rarity of items in other leagues will decrease. For one simple reason: you can always go to this league and get everything you want. Finding Mirror of Kalandra will never fill the same after you add league where it can be purchased for few scrolls of wisdom.

Let's examine your straw man arguments.

1. You can get to endgame maps in about 50 hours of game time.
    You are only looking at PoE from the hardcore player view. If you are a good "Kripp" type player in a 5 or 6 group party that may well be true. From the casual player mostly solo perspective there is no way that is ever going to happen. Personal example: I play Anarchy averaging 20 to 25 hours a week. Over 12 weeks I estimate that I've played 250 to 275 hours total. I have 4 characters and my highest level 69 summoner witch I have 75 to 80 hours of time invested (sunk). I'm up to the Sarn Crematorium and have died a few times in there and have died 6 times to Piety. I finally restructure my build to get 45% fire resist to get to her and then switch over to gear that gives me 75% lightning resist. I stopped being one-shotted long enough to get in and deploy my 8 zombies and 12 skeletons in her face and firestorm her. I still died but I got her down about 1/3 health so I came close. Last night I had emergency work to do so I wasn't done and home until 10:45 pm. I worked from 8 am. straight without a lunch break so I was dead tired and didn't play PoE at all. This is typical for a person running a business with a real life. Sometimes I get 3, 4, 5 hours on weekends if lucky. Anyway, it looks like I'll finally get past crematorium Piety in my next run. That's an early Sarn boss battle so I'll need to ramp up my PoE time if I hope to complete Merciless Anarchy before the October 8th deadline. You can say all you want to but not everyone who wants to play PoE has the skills to get through all 3 levels of difficulty in 50 hours (which I think is a low estimate to start with).

2. If you can gain everything you want too easily it will become boring.
    Very true statement but a hardcore player that can get to the endgame maps in approx. 50 hours as you say it should take should never ever play a casual league. That would be dumb as I told some one in a previous post: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/511034/page/19#p4593138.

3. Once you add league where everything can be obtained in a matter of few days, perceived rarity of items in other leagues will decrease.
    Once again you are only looking at a casual league from the hardcore player perspective. Since only the time limited PoE player should be playing a casual league, the length of time to get better items can be tweaked so that the loot a hardcore player playing the HC league can get over a few months in HC will not take a time limited casual player years to amass (if ever). If an HC player plays the casual league and does face roll through it all in a matter of a few days, and then is bored, who is being dumb? Certainly not GGG for making a casual league to make PoE accessible to millions of arpg players that want to play PoE but are very time limited. It's the hardcore player that stupidly chooses to play a league that he/she knows is way too easy for them. Any game that allows you to set the level of difficulty is in the same position. I mostly play other games on normal and never choose easy difficulty. So a hardcore PoE player that plays other games on the hard or hardest difficulty setting would be dumb to jump in and play a casual league.

The other reason for GGG to have a casual league was indirectly hinted at in a previous post. In Anarchy league I have:
 level 69 witch
 level 56 duelist
 level 28 ranger
 level 19 marauder
Created in approx. 275 hours of playing over a 12 week period. One of PoE's strongest selling points is the ability to experiment with the passive skill tree to make different builds. Some work well, others not so well. This part of PoE is absolutely wonderful compared to any other arpg I've played and I love to try out new builds. Just about any build works well for the first 50 levels and it's extremely fun to try new spell combinations and learning all manner of attack strategies for the new builds. the 2nd 50 levels is where the grind, grind, grind sets in and we learn if the current build is good or not to reach the endgame. The time strapped PoE player is missing out on a lot of fun of this part of PoE if the timespan to get a character to the endgame takes 4 to 6 months. And don't forget that time will increase as we'll soon have act 3x, and next year act 4, and the following year act 5, etc. which will lengthen the total time needed to take a new build from the act 1 beach through to the final Merciless boss battle.

Casual league ??

reading these forums sometimes makes me have no faith in humanity.

POE is an oldschool ARPG

GGG explain this on there frontpage

quote:

Exile Yourself to the Unforgiving Continent of Wraeclast!

Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves


why are you people even here?


is like buying a pizza and complain is not a car, except here you getting it for free!

What is wrong with you people?

"

Arrowneous wrote:

I have 4 characters and my highest level 69 summoner witch I have 75 to 80 hours of time invested (sunk). I'm up to the Sarn Crematorium and have died a few times in there and have died 6 times to Piety. I finally restructure my build to get 45% fire resist to get to her and then switch over to gear that gives me 75% lightning resist. I stopped being one-shotted long enough to get in and deploy my 8 zombies and 12 skeletons in her face and firestorm her. I still died but I got her down about 1/3 health so I came close. Last night I had emergency work to do so I wasn't done and home until 10:45 pm. I worked from 8 am. straight without a lunch break so I was dead tired and didn't play PoE at all. This is typical for a person running a business with a real life. Sometimes I get 3, 4, 5 hours on weekends if lucky. Anyway, it looks like I'll finally get past crematorium Piety in my next run. That's an early Sarn boss battle so I'll need to ramp up my PoE time if I hope to complete Merciless Anarchy before the October 8th deadline. You can say all you want to but not everyone who wants to play PoE has the skills to get through all 3 levels of difficulty in 50 hours (which I think is a low estimate to start with).

Sorry to say this but it's not a time issue, it's a learn to play issue. If others can clear the game in 10 hours or less there is no reason you can't do the same is double the time, what you need to do is figure out what you're doing wrong and fix what ever it is.

"

Arrowneous wrote:

2. If you can gain everything you want too easily it will become boring.
    Very true statement but a hardcore player that can get to the endgame maps in approx. 50 hours as you say it should take should never ever play a casual league. That would be dumb as I told some one in a previous post: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/511034/page/19#p4593138.

The hardcore player might not chose the path of least resistence, there are tons of players that would given the opportunity though. Those players would be bored faster than they would otherwise be, if you still don't believe me look at WoW's declining player numbers ever since the game was made more and more "mainstream".

"

Arrowneous wrote:

3. Once you add league where everything can be obtained in a matter of few days, perceived rarity of items in other leagues will decrease.
    Once again you are only looking at a casual league from the hardcore player perspective. Since only the time limited PoE player should be playing a casual league, the length of time to get better items can be tweaked so that the loot a hardcore player playing the HC league can get over a few months in HC will not take a time limited casual player years to amass (if ever). If an HC player plays the casual league and does face roll through it all in a matter of a few days, and then is bored, who is being dumb? Certainly not GGG for making a casual league to make PoE accessible to millions of arpg players that want to play PoE but are very time limited. It's the hardcore player that stupidly chooses to play a league that he/she knows is way too easy for them. Any game that allows you to set the level of difficulty is in the same position. I mostly play other games on normal and never choose easy difficulty. So a hardcore PoE player that plays other games on the hard or hardest difficulty setting would be dumb to jump in and play a casual league.

Again you divide the players in to hardcore and casuals and forget the bulk of the players in between, most of whom will take the path of least resistance due to human nature.

"

Arrowneous wrote:

The other reason for GGG to have a casual league was indirectly hinted at in a previous post. In Anarchy league I have:
 level 69 witch
 level 56 duelist
 level 28 ranger
 level 19 marauder
Created in approx. 275 hours of playing over a 12 week period. One of PoE's strongest selling points is the ability to experiment with the passive skill tree to make different builds. Some work well, others not so well. This part of PoE is absolutely wonderful compared to any other arpg I've played and I love to try out new builds. Just about any build works well for the first 50 levels and it's extremely fun to try new spell combinations and learning all manner of attack strategies for the new builds. the 2nd 50 levels is where the grind, grind, grind sets in and we learn if the current build is good or not to reach the endgame. The time strapped PoE player is missing out on a lot of fun of this part of PoE if the timespan to get a character to the endgame takes 4 to 6 months. And don't forget that time will increase as we'll soon have act 3x, and next year act 4, and the following year act 5, etc. which will lengthen the total time needed to take a new build from the act 1 beach through to the final Merciless boss battle.

Yet I answered you earlier with my stash and played time for my Onslaught character who is currently level 83, while I have played about 1-2 days more than you it most definitely not 4-6 moths to reach end game. Nor is it any real issue gathering wealth during that time.


You're asking for the game to be changed to cater to the lowest common denominator instead of asking your self how to improve your understanding and skill playing the game. Many developers have tried to cater to the masses that way and I'm sure it's profitable in the short run, I have yet to see one of those games do well in the long run though as they generally end up lacking depth, being easy to "finish" and just plain boring.

PoE is already accessible to those who can't play a lot. Just adjust your perspective and your expectations to the game as it sits.

"

iamstryker wrote:

PoE is already accessible to those who can't play a lot. Just adjust your perspective and your expectations to the game as it sits.

You are wrong.
Why should anyone want to play a game to reach first 60-70% of its potential?
Running all the acts in all difficulties and getting decent gear is fun, sure, but many many people want to get some of the end game gear and play the higher levels where you can play around with the skill nodes a bit.

Why not try to change the game in a way that does not f--k it up for others (no ladders etc) and just make it more fun for the casual player?

And why go against such a proposal?
It just can't hurt anyone.
...Just make it more fun for the ones that doesn't want to play all day long and doesn't give a crap about ladders.
The game is fun but not rewarding if you don't play party with high IIR/IIQ and casual players don't get there.

"

Peacebringer wrote:

You are wrong.

He really isn't...

Exile Yourself to the Unforgiving Continent of Wraeclast!

Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves

The game is made by hardcore gamers for hardcore gamers, something I'm really happy about as it fills a niche in the market that was forgotten years ago in the name of the almighty dollar.

If you're expecting to get it all from such a game without putting in time and effort you're in the wrong place, Blizzard develops a variety of games aimed at that market so there is no need to turn PoE in to that.

"

Peacebringer wrote:

Why should anyone want to play a game to reach first 60-70% of its potential?
Running all the acts in all difficulties and getting decent gear is fun, sure, but many many people want to get some of the end game gear and play the higher levels where you can play around with the skill nodes a bit.

So do it...getting to 70 don't take more than 20-40 hours played, end game gear is a very broad definition in PoE as opposed to D3 for example, I have mapped with items I found in my 40's and 50's without any issue.

"

Peacebringer wrote:

Why not try to change the game in a way that does not f--k it up for others (no ladders etc) and just make it more fun for the casual player?

And why go against such a proposal?
It just can't hurt anyone.
...Just make it more fun for the ones that doesn't want to play all day long and doesn't give a crap about ladders.
The game is fun but not rewarding if you don't play party with high IIR/IIQ and casual players don't get there.

Because it's bad for the game as a whole, players taking the path of least resistance because it's easier gets bored faster. Dividing the player base even further. Having a negative impact on the overall value of high end items in all leagues due to the temptation of taking the path of least resistance, and so on.

"

Peacebringer wrote:

You are wrong.

I know I am not wrong because I already don't have a lot of time to play. I probably have more time to type messages on the forums than play the actual game due to my family life. And yet I still have plenty of characters running maps and getting pretty darn good gear. I don't know what more any casual could possibly ask for.

"

Why should anyone want to play a game to reach first 60-70% of its potential?

I guess your trying to say that casuals will not see all of the content but I disagree. As long as you stick with it long term you will eventually get what you want. You don't have to play many hours per day to do that.

"

Running all the acts in all difficulties and getting decent gear is fun, sure, but many many people want to get some of the end game gear and play the higher levels where you can play around with the skill nodes a bit.

Like I said, I don't see why ANYONE can't reach lvl 80 which is more than enough to get whatever nodes you need for your build.

"

Why not try to change the game in a way that does not f--k it up for others (no ladders etc) and just make it more fun for the casual player?

Doing that undermines the design of the game for everyone. All leagues deal with the same drop rate and difficulty. The devs only want the difficulty to stay the same or get higher. I am not against critiques on the crafting system or other controversial issues but I don't think a casual league is necessary.

"

...Just make it more fun for the ones that doesn't want to play all day long and doesn't give a crap about ladders.

I can't agree with this because I don't play all day long and I don't care about the ladders. So from my perspective the game can be enjoyable for anyone. However if your goals and wants are different than mine then maybe you won't find the enjoyment that I have, its all relative.

"

The game is fun but not rewarding if you don't play party with high IIR/IIQ and casual players don't get there.

Even solo players can make a magic find build like summoner or dual totem. I don't agree that we should have to do that either but my point stands that anyone can do it so anyone has access to decent rewards from the game. I don't party much because of the lag on my system.

"

iamstryker wrote:

"

Peacebringer wrote:

You are wrong.

I know I am not wrong because I already don't have a lot of time to play. I probably have more time to type messages on the forums than play the actual game due to my family life. And yet I still have plenty of characters running maps and getting pretty darn good gear. I don't know what more any casual could possibly ask for.

"

Why should anyone want to play a game to reach first 60-70% of its potential?

I guess your trying to say that casuals will not see all of the content but I disagree. As long as you stick with it long term you will eventually get what you want. You don't have to play many hours per day to do that.

"

Running all the acts in all difficulties and getting decent gear is fun, sure, but many many people want to get some of the end game gear and play the higher levels where you can play around with the skill nodes a bit.

Like I said, I don't see why ANYONE can't reach lvl 80 which is more than enough to get whatever nodes you need for your build.

"

Why not try to change the game in a way that does not f--k it up for others (no ladders etc) and just make it more fun for the casual player?

Doing that undermines the design of the game for everyone. All leagues deal with the same drop rate and difficulty. The devs only want the difficulty to stay the same or get higher. I am not against critiques on the crafting system or other controversial issues but I don't think a casual league is necessary.

"

...Just make it more fun for the ones that doesn't want to play all day long and doesn't give a crap about ladders.

I can't agree with this because I don't play all day long and I don't care about the ladders. So from my perspective the game can be enjoyable for anyone. However if your goals and wants are different than mine then maybe you won't find the enjoyment that I have, its all relative.

"

The game is fun but not rewarding if you don't play party with high IIR/IIQ and casual players don't get there.

Even solo players can make a magic find build like summoner or dual totem. I don't agree that we should have to do that either but my point stands that anyone can do it so anyone has access to decent rewards from the game. I don't party much because of the lag on my system.

So I should play one of the few builds that have a possibility to give me the good content? Well maybe, but for how long?
"My" suggestion could be a paid league, not undermining the whole design.
You can actually do so much to avoid this without a $-league. For example you can add some sort of bonus to other leagues. Getting x% defenses per level 68 character you have in standard. More from HC and so on. 0 bonus from "Casual league". Just one of billion examples if you're creative..

PS. I were wrong saying "you're wrong" because it is a personal feeling how you like to play the game. Me with others doesn't really feel we reach the whole game how it is systemized right now and therefore we try to give feedback how this could be changed in a matter that wouldn't destroy the game.
If that would be a new league or nerf IIQ/IIR or whatever suggestions "we" have came up with, I don't know. But at least we're trying ;-)
DS.

"

Peacebringer wrote:

"My" suggestion could be a paid league, not undermining the whole design.
You can actually do so much to avoid this without a $-league. For example you can add some sort of bonus to other leagues. Getting x% defenses per level 68 character you have in standard. More from HC and so on. 0 bonus from "Casual league". Just one of billion examples if you're creative..

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/

Their game design philosophies seems to be right up your alley...

"

Redblade wrote:

Sorry to say this but it's not a time issue, it's a learn to play issue. If others can clear the game in 10 hours or less there is no reason you can't do the same is double the time, what you need to do is figure out what you're doing wrong and fix what ever it is.

The hardcore player might not chose the path of least resistence, there are tons of players that would given the opportunity though. Those players would be bored faster than they would otherwise be, if you still don't believe me look at WoW's declining player numbers ever since the game was made more and more "mainstream".


Again you divide the players in to hardcore and casuals and forget the bulk of the players in between, most of whom will take the path of least resistance due to human nature.


Yet I answered you earlier with my stash and played time for my Onslaught character who is currently level 83, while I have played about 1-2 days more than you it most definitely not 4-6 moths to reach end game. Nor is it any real issue gathering wealth during that time.


You're asking for the game to be changed to cater to the lowest common denominator instead of asking your self how to improve your understanding and skill playing the game. Many developers have tried to cater to the masses that way and I'm sure it's profitable in the short run, I have yet to see one of those games do well in the long run though as they generally end up lacking depth, being easy to "finish" and just plain boring.

1. A learn to play issue?
 True. If I could play PoE at a caliper of the likes of Kripp then there would never need to be a casual league. If I didn't have to work and could play PoE 8+ hours every day I wouldn't want a casual league. If I had the time to learn to play better there'd be no need for a casual league. If everyone was the same we wouldn't need so much variety in our lives . If...if...if... The real world isn't that way. There is no such thing as a one size fits all.

2. Why keep rehashing the stale argument that a casual league will cause the good PoE players to use it, devour all the content, and then complain that it's boring. That's not the fault of the casual league, that's the fault of the better players for being stupid and playing a league they know that they can face roll. I can't stop a good PoE player from playing a casual league, but to do so and then complain they're bored is ludicrous and stupid.

3. If there are many good arpg players that want to be lazy and play a casual PoE league they have only themselves to blame if they then find that boring. Stay in the standard or hardcore leagues. It can't be stated any more succinctly. Stupidity or laziness isn't a valid arguing point against having a casual league.

4. Again you use the false logic of you personally getting to level 83 in Onslaught in not much more time then I have played to get to level 69 in Merciless Anarchy so that means PoE is balanced correctly. All that proves is that you are a much better player than I am. But so what? That is a comment about your superior playing ability and not a valid reason against a casual league. That makes as much sense as me stating that I'm a better driver so everyone else should be as good as I am or else quit driving. In the arpg world there will always be players of different skill levels and to say that everyone should play at your high level of ability or quit playing smacks of "my way or the highway" mentality.

5. I'm asking for a league to ease the time sink requirements for the time limited PoE player. Plain and simple. Again, and again, and yet again the argument against a casual league is being thown in my face. To quote you " ...being easy to "finish" and just plain boring." Why keep stating this when you and anyone with a high level of PoE playing ability should never ever play a casual league. You are again trying to make your point based on your level of playing ability. Have you ever considered that there may be millions of would be PoE players that are less skilled than you, are never ever going to be as skilled as you, and either will never have the free time resources to play PoE as much as you or never want to commit that much free time to playing PoE to attempt to get to your level of playing ability. Should they all be denied the opportunity to play PoE and experience all the great things it has to offer to an arpg player just because they aren't as good a player as you?

 I will gladly concede to the point that GGG created an arpg that they wanted to play. It's their creation and they can always choose to make it any way they want. It's also within my right to agree with the poster of this thread that a casual league, while not what the devs would like to play to get their daily PoE gaming fix, is never to be ruled out just because they personally could face roll through it and get bored in that league. I'm sure right now that many players don't play standard league for that same reason and use the derogatory name "softcore" to refer to it. They see standard league as too easy and boring. By your criteria should GGG eliminate standard league also?

 I didn't post this topic so there has to be many more PoE players with a similar view favoring a casual league. I'm also positive that there are many more "casual" arpg players that would love to play PoE and buy stash tabs or pets or other bling if only the time requirements weren't so steep.