Any one who feels like D3 will NEVER be good due to the lack of making builds?

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Antilurker77 wrote:

They are builds regardless if they're permanent or not. The definition of a build is that you are selecting a few options out of a choice of many. It doesn't matter if your locked-in to your choice or not.

One of my problem with D3's supposed "builds" is how you are really pushed into using specific skills/runes. D3 trys to make the game difficult to a degree where you are not only taking massive damage but the rare packs also use skills the give you unavoidable damage. Since you have all of this crap thrown at you, you feel required to use the most viable "builds" in the game because a lot of the skills/runes simply aren't viable.

For example I played a wizard in D3 and can you all guess what defensive spell I used??? Thats right "Energy Armor" First obviously force armor since it was awesome to start with and then Prismatic armor.

Why didn't I use a different armor spell? Because of inferno's bull crap mobs and crazy damage. I felt like I would have been a fool to use anything else. Its the games fault for making it like this. Blizzard couldn't balance the game so the same few builds were used in every class.

Now how can you call these "builds" when most everyone are using the same ones? You didn't build them, Blizzard built them and made them viable. You did absolutely nothing but select these pre-built skills. Now if you had the option to make these skills more powerful then maybe you could make a build. But you can't

I will never forgive D3 for what they did to the witch doctor either. How the hell do you release the game and not have a minion build viable in the end game???? Pathetic.

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Sickness wrote:

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FireSkull wrote:

At least that game is better than D3...
And like i said, apparently u cant explain why u "think" that the system in D3 is better.... Instead u just post that game as some kind of excuse...

Why should I explain that? Your topis is "D3 has no builds", that is not an opinion, that is a false statement and I have already explained why.
Whether or not I prefer D2 to D3 is completely irrelevant, as D3 is the same system either way.

Maybe we should all just compromise and say that....yes D3 has builds. They are super limited choices, not many viable ones at all....but I guess you can call them builds.

Here's a question? Did you make the build or did Blizzard make the build? When I played the game it sure felt like Blizzard made the build and I just had to choose it like everyone else in order to try to make it through inferno.

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iamstryker wrote:

Maybe we should all just compromise and say that....yes D3 has builds. They are super limited choices, not many viable ones at all....but I guess you can call them builds.

Here's a question? Did you make the build or did Blizzard make the build? When I played the game it sure felt like Blizzard made the build and I just had to choose it like everyone else in order to try to make it through inferno.

No, there is no compromise to be made. They are builds, end of discussion. Just because only a few of them are viable doesn't change that at all. Do you think that PoE or D2 would have many viable builds if they was as hard as D3?

But for every patch more and more builds become viable. Balance always takes time in a complex system such as D3.

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Sickness wrote:

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iamstryker wrote:

Maybe we should all just compromise and say that....yes D3 has builds. They are super limited choices, not many viable ones at all....but I guess you can call them builds.

Here's a question? Did you make the build or did Blizzard make the build? When I played the game it sure felt like Blizzard made the build and I just had to choose it like everyone else in order to try to make it through inferno.

No, there is no compromise to be made. They are builds, end of discussion. Just because only a few of them are viable doesn't change that at all. Do you think that PoE or D2 would have many viable builds if they was as hard as D3?

But for every patch more and more builds become viable. Balance always takes time in a complex system such as D3.

I don't know why your arguing with what I posted. I admitted that they are builds but the problem everyone has with them is that A) There aren't nearly enough builds and B) Players don't usually feel like they made the build themselves. When people say that the game doesn't have builds I personally feel like this is what they are saying. So in light of these issues it really does feel like the game has NO builds since you the player aren't making them, your just getting the obvious ones shoved down your throat.

I also don't disagree with your assessment of POE and D2. Blizzard was dumb for trying to go super hard because that choice also hindered them in build diversity. POE has the difficulty right. Its challenging enough to make it interesting for most builds but it doens't have a ton of unavoidable damage and the ultra fast rare packs that one shot you. That stuff is just unnecessary in a good ARPG.

Edit: Having a few viable builds in the successor to D2 is beyond retarded and blizzards patches don't appear to be helping much. With every build that they might make viable they nerf another one. Their obsession with balance is shooting them in the foot.

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iamstryker wrote:

Players don't usually feel like they made the build themselves.

What? How is it different from D2 or PoE in that regard?

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iamstryker wrote:

I also don't disagree with your assessment of POE and D2. Blizzard was dumb for trying to go super hard because that choice also hindered them in build diversity. POE has the difficulty right. Its challenging enough to make it interesting for most builds but it doens't have a ton of unavoidable damage and the ultra fast rare packs that one shot you. That stuff is just unnecessary in a good ARPG.

They have been nerfing alot of that stuff.

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iamstryker wrote:

Their obsession with balance is shooting them in the foot.

Balance is the only way to get true build diversity, so their obsession with balance is great.

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iamstryker wrote:

Players don't usually feel like they made the build themselves.

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Sickness wrote:

What? How is it different from D2 or PoE in that regard?

When I played D3 I never felt like I built a character and made it powerful. In D2 and especially POE you have to put effort into making your character have high DPS and/or defense in a particular build. You have to take the skill points the game gives you and put them where they need to go and also use the right gems. In D3 the skills are already done for you and some of them suck and some of them are good. Even with the best equipment some skills are terrible for the end game and others shine. Blizzard made it that way and there's nothing you can do to change that.

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Sickness wrote:

They have been nerfing alot of that stuff.

They have been slowly nerfing inferno but I don't see the customization issues getting fixed unless they reworked most of the game.

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Sickness wrote:

Balance is the only way to get true build diversity, so their obsession with balance is great.

I think its the nature of these games that some builds will be easier to make than others and naturally be more powerful. Seems like a losing battle to try to continually nerf and buff everything. In POE there are a good amount of what people would classify as "overpowered" builds, should they be nerfed? I don't think so because they are fun builds and because making the harder to make builds work is part of the fun of the game. POE already has a ton of viable builds, so IMO it already has great build diversity. I don't think that nerfing all of the time is fun or really good for the game.

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iamstryker wrote:

When I played D3 I never felt like I built a character and made it powerful.

I did.

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iamstryker wrote:

In D2 and especially POE you have to put effort into making your character have high DPS and/or defense in a particular build. You have to take the skill points the game gives you and put them where they need to go and also use the right gems. In D3 the skills are already done for you and some of them suck and some of them are good.

Leveling up and placing skill points is not to put effort into it. Skills are not done for you in D3 any more than they are in PoE or D2.

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iamstryker wrote:

Even with the best equipment some skills are terrible for the end game and others shine. Blizzard made it that way and there's nothing you can do to change that.

You can't claim that they are obsessed with balance AND that they intend for some skills to suck and for some to be good.

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iamstryker wrote:

They have been slowly nerfing inferno but I don't see the customization issues getting fixed unless they reworked most of the game.

Rework most of the game? It only begins to be an issue on inferno, and it's getting better and better in every patch. Where is the problem with that exactly?

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iamstryker wrote:

I think its the nature of these games that some builds will be easier to make than others and naturally be more powerful. Seems like a losing battle to try to continually nerf and buff everything. In POE there are a good amount of what people would classify as "overpowered" builds, should they be nerfed? I don't think so because they are fun builds and because making the harder to make builds work is part of the fun of the game. POE already has a ton of viable builds, so IMO it already has great build diversity. I don't think that nerfing all of the time is fun or really good for the game.

OP builds should obviously be nerfed. There may be a sense of greater build diversity in PoE, but that's mostly because it's so easy and the balance changes faster than most people can be arsed to reroll.

Yes, I think if things keep going the way they are, d3 will go down in history of one of the biggest fail sequel to one of the greatest series ever.

And the build diversity is a problem but easily fixed. The AH, item stats, weapon dps governing all damage, all things that are hardcoded into the game that are an epic fail (could literally go on for pages), they are this games biggest hinderance.

Record breaking sales? Well we'll see how their expansion does :) everyone get ready to troll the forums lol

P.S. if given the opportunity to kick jay wilson in the balls, I would get a running start.

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Leveling up and placing skill points is not to put effort into it. Skills are not done for you in D3 any more than they are in PoE or D2.

Ok lets compare the two games. In Path of Exile in order to make certain builds work you have to use 1. Specific passives, 2. Specific gems (and support gems), 3.specific uniques with specific mods from all of your equipment.

In D3 to make virtually ANY build work all you need is the same equipment/mods that everyone else in the game uses to get DPS and defense.

Which takes more thought and effort?

In D3 you have to do NOTHING to make skills work besides pursuing high DPS through the boring itemization that everyone in the game uses. Not to mention that some skills will never work in the end game unless Blizzard buffs them.

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You can't claim that they are obsessed with balance AND that they intend for some skills to suck and for some to be good.

I don't think that they intend for some skills to suck and for some to be good, the game is just like that for some inexplicable reason, and with them consistently nerfing a lot of the good skills they keep the game in constant flux of some skills being good and some sucking. When I bought the game I wanted all skills to be viable end game. Thats not what I got. Instead the same skills were overused by the community to try to get through inferno. I found it to be boring and uninteresting.

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Rework most of the game? It only begins to be an issue on inferno, and it's getting better and better in every patch. Where is the problem with that exactly?

I agree that the game isn't too bad up until inferno (hence why I said that having inferno super hard just hurt the game). Unfortunately the big fans of the Diablo series wanted to enjoy the game for a long time and not just up until inferno. I personally don't see the games biggest problems ever being patched out. Some of it is just too ingrained into the framework.

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OP builds should obviously be nerfed. There may be a sense of greater build diversity in PoE, but that's mostly because it's so easy and the balance changes faster than most people can be arsed to reroll.

IMO feeling OP is part of what makes these games great. Making your build and then reaping the rewards for your time and effort. D1 and D2 were not super hard games with lots of unavoidable damage through cheap attacks, and yet they were very popular. Theres always going to be builds in POE that are better than others. Its a losing battle trying to nerf all of the time. It just pisses people off who put work into the build only to find that it hardly works anymore.

Ok, it's pointless to have an argument about build diversity when we disagree on the universe.