Any one who feels like D3 will NEVER be good due to the lack of making builds?

I have to agree that there is no real build diversity in D3, however there are some builds. For example:

As a Barbarian you can make a WW build, or you can be bad.

As a Wizard you can make a CM build, or you can be bad.

As a Monk you can use the Sweeping Wind build, or you can be bad.

This is the type of build diversity that D3 has. I played a ton, btw. Very close to a level 60 of each class on both Softcore and Hardcore. Typically every 'build' of a given class uses 80% the same abilities, this is due to very poor game design and cannot be fixed without a complete overhaul of the game and its mechanics imo, and sadly I have probably spent 1k hours playing it.

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thepmrc wrote:

I have to agree that there is no real build diversity in D3, however there are some builds. For example:

As a Barbarian you can make a WW build, or you can be bad.

As a Wizard you can make a CM build, or you can be bad.

As a Monk you can use the Sweeping Wind build, or you can be bad.

This is the type of build diversity that D3 has. I played a ton, btw. Very close to a level 60 of each class on both Softcore and Hardcore. Typically every 'build' of a given class uses 80% the same abilities, this is due to very poor game design and cannot be fixed without a complete overhaul of the game and its mechanics imo, and sadly I have probably spent 1k hours playing it.

I don't know how you can play for that many hours yet be so ignorant on what builds people are using.

Wizards have at least 4 popular builds right now (blizz/hydra, CM perma-freeze, arcane orb, archon). Even CM builds have quite a bit of variation right now. Energy Twister, Meteor, and Spectral Blade are interchangeable, some builds drop Diamond Skin for Familiar: Sparkflint. You can even drop Energy Armor once your gear gets past a certain point.

For monks, Sweeping Winds isn't as popular anymore. Almost all of the damage skills are interchangeable. Right now it's their defensive/CC skills that need balance right now.

Barbs are in a bad spot right now, I'll give you that.

The game does not need a total overhaul to get "fixed". Most of the issues are with the numbers. Bad skills and runes can get redesigned. The framework is all there, the game just needs a bit of polish.

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Antilurker77 wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

I have to agree that there is no real build diversity in D3, however there are some builds. For example:

As a Barbarian you can make a WW build, or you can be bad.

As a Wizard you can make a CM build, or you can be bad.

As a Monk you can use the Sweeping Wind build, or you can be bad.

This is the type of build diversity that D3 has. I played a ton, btw. Very close to a level 60 of each class on both Softcore and Hardcore. Typically every 'build' of a given class uses 80% the same abilities, this is due to very poor game design and cannot be fixed without a complete overhaul of the game and its mechanics imo, and sadly I have probably spent 1k hours playing it.

I don't know how you can play for that many hours yet be so ignorant on what builds people are using.

Wizards have at least 4 popular builds right now (blizz/hydra, CM perma-freeze, arcane orb, archon). Even CM builds have quite a bit of variation right now. Energy Twister, Meteor, and Spectral Blade are interchangeable, some builds drop Diamond Skin for Familiar: Sparkflint. You can even drop Energy Armor once your gear gets past a certain point.

For monks, Sweeping Winds isn't as popular anymore. Almost all of the damage skills are interchangeable. Right now it's their defensive/CC skills that need balance right now.

Barbs are in a bad spot right now, I'll give you that.

The game does not need a total overhaul to get "fixed". Most of the issues are with the numbers. Bad skills and runes can get redesigned. The framework is all there, the game just needs a bit of polish.

lol. Blizz hydra is the build that I used to beat inferno in week 2... but it sucks when compared to ANY CM BUILD WITH DECENT GEAR. As far as ET/Meteor/SB being interchangeable? Who cares, a CM build is a CM build is a CM build. Doesn't matter what you use to trigger it (Wicked Wind is by far the best, it was trumped for a bit until they nerfed all the other procs) or whether u go freezy route or turbo archon... its the same crap.

The issue is not numbers, just like the Wizard issue was not with their proc coefficients IT WAS CRITICAL MASS, and it will ALWAYS BE CRITICAL MASS, and the fact that they nerf proc coefficients into oblivion due to a broken passive proves their incompetence.

Monks use FoT / Serenity / Breath of Heaven / Faith in the Light / Sweeping Wind / Mantra... some people go with some spirit regen and tempest rush over the blind or SW... that is it. Oh yeah and their passives.... OWE/STI/* Resolve/NDE for HC and Fleetfooted for SC... great build variety.

I am in no way ignorant, however if you feel that picking which skill to trigger CM with is build variety then I guess I can't argue with you.

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thepmrc wrote:

lol. Blizz hydra is the build that I used to beat inferno in week 2... but it sucks when compared to ANY CM BUILD WITH DECENT GEAR. As far as ET/Meteor/SB being interchangeable? Who cares, a CM build is a CM build is a CM build. Doesn't matter what you use to trigger it (Wicked Wind is by far the best, it was trumped for a bit until they nerfed all the other procs) or whether u go freezy route or turbo archon... its the same crap.

That's like saying Fireball and Infernal Blow are the same because they both trigger burning.

The only skills CM needs is Explosive Blast, Frost Nova, something with a high proc rate, and obviously Critical Mass. Everything else can be changed based on gear / playstyle.

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The issue is not numbers, just like the Wizard issue was not with their proc coefficients IT WAS CRITICAL MASS, and it will ALWAYS BE CRITICAL MASS, and the fact that they nerf proc coefficients into oblivion due to a broken passive proves their incompetence.

It is a number issue for most skills. There's some that have bad mechanics but for many skills and runes they aren't used because their mathematically inferior.

Also, they've never nerfed proc rates because of CM. In fact the only proc rate they nerfed was for Energy Twister, and that was to stop it from chain-proccing legendaries.

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Monks use FoT / Serenity / Breath of Heaven / Faith in the Light / Sweeping Wind / Mantra... some people go with some spirit regen and tempest rush over the blind or SW... that is it. Oh yeah and their passives.... OWE/STI/* Resolve/NDE for HC and Fleetfooted for SC... great build variety.

Only ~13% uses that build. Like I said, you don't know much about D3 builds.

JAY WILSON

HE DOUBLED IT

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Antilurker77 wrote:

The only skills CM needs is Explosive Blast, Frost Nova, something with a high proc rate, and obviously Critical Mass. Everything else can be changed based on gear / playstyle.

Bottom line you are playing CM to turbo archon or to freeze stuff in place. This is not diversity and it all desires the same gear anyway.

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Antilurker77 wrote:

Also, they've never nerfed proc rates because of CM. In fact the only proc rate they nerfed was for Energy Twister, and that was to stop it from chain-proccing legendaries.

You actually believe that? Wow. These were 'balanced' due to the interaction between frost nova and CM, not because of 'legendary procs'. If it was just to reduce legendary proc rates they could just reduce legendary proc rates.... but that would make entirely too much sense.

Not to mention the statement that 'In fact the only proc rate they nerfed was for Energy Twister'

What about the nerfs to Meteor, Spectral Blades, Living Lightning, and Venom Weapon? Specifically Living Lightning and Spectral Blades BEFORE THE LEGENDARY PROCS EXISTED! So this proves that their statement of it being due to legendary procs to be complete BS, not to mention your statement about ET being the only proc nerf.... For someone who claims to know so much you are pretty ignorant.

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antilurker77 wrote:

Only ~13% uses that build. Like I said, you don't know much about D3 builds.

I can make up random statistics too... Look at Diablo Progress for the top monks in HC and SC and you will see that I am correct. There is a variance of ~1 skill and ~1 passive in the builds.

To drive home my point look at the skill breakdown for the top 50 Paragon for HC and SC by class... massive diversity...

http://www.diabloprogress.com/top_skills/stat_paragon_level_50

I cannot argue that I have had fun playing D3, but you cannot honestly argue that there is major build diversity in the game. Every class is pigeon-holed into specific skills/interactions to maximize efficiency. Other stuff can work, but it is inferior in every way.

I agree D3 only has about 1 viable build per class. I played a Monk all the way through inferno 200+ hours of game time on one character. I mean I liked the game and all but to pretend there is any kind of build diversity in inferno is blind fanboyism. Maybe there are 1 or even 2 interchangeable skills but they all pretty much play the exact same way and require the exact same gear. I'll admit I haven't played in a couple months but I cant imagine that changing without a complete and utter overhaul of the skill system.

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You actually believe that? Wow. These were 'balanced' due to the interaction between frost nova and CM, not because of 'legendary procs'. If it was just to reduce legendary proc rates they could just reduce legendary proc rates.... but that would make entirely too much sense.

Yeah, Blizzard should nerf all the legendaries because of one ability from one class. Brilliant idea.

Energy Twister by far had the highest number of procs in the game. The pre-1.0.4 version could get a near 100% uptime for every legendary proc in the game which would have been broken. If they were nerfing it because of CM, they would have removed the ability to keep up perma-freeze, but they didn't. It's still not hard to do after the patch.

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Not to mention the statement that 'In fact the only proc rate they nerfed was for Energy Twister'

What about the nerfs to Meteor, Spectral Blades, Living Lightning, and Venom Weapon? Specifically Living Lightning and Spectral Blades BEFORE THE LEGENDARY PROCS EXISTED! So this proves that their statement of it being due to legendary procs to be complete BS, not to mention your statement about ET being the only proc nerf.... For someone who claims to know so much you are pretty ignorant.

They've never nerfed any of those proc rates. Go through all the patch notes and hotfixes if you don't believe me. You're probably confusing a proc rate nerf with a bug with CM that was causing it to ignore proc rates for several skills.

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I cannot argue that I have had fun playing D3, but you cannot honestly argue that there is major build diversity in the game. Every class is pigeon-holed into specific skills/interactions to maximize efficiency. Other stuff can work, but it is inferior in every way.

Never said they were all equal. I was saying that there's a lot more viable builds than what your claiming, and that the difference between the best builds and the others is not as great as you think.

I definitely remember Living Lightning being nerfed quickly after launch. Theres nothing in the patch notes/hotfixes on it or critical mass but it was obvious to anyone trying to use the build.

I don't find it surprising that Blizzard does ninja nerfs like that anymore. They also mess with the drop rates without communicating it to the community.