Malachai's Simula Blood Magic trick being removed. Why I'm disappointed.

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raics wrote:

Sorry, but the math just doesn't add up. Let's say you do 30k dps by doing 3 attacks per second, 10k each. Your weapon has base AS of 1.5 and you have 100% IAS total, without haste. Turning on Haste increases that to 113% bringing your attack speed to 3,2 attacks per second and your dps to 32k, that's an awfully nice 2k more DPS or 6,5% if you prefer it that way.

A 1.7 base attack weapon (jeweled foil for example) gains 9412 DPS from haste with a level 23 elemental hit. So upon doing the math thats nearly 11K less DPS than my rounding assumed, but it's far more than 2K. It's even better if you have an even faster attacking weapon due to local mods.

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Flickerflare wrote:

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raics wrote:

Sorry, but the math just doesn't add up. Let's say you do 30k dps by doing 3 attacks per second, 10k each. Your weapon has base AS of 1.5 and you have 100% IAS total, without haste. Turning on Haste increases that to 113% bringing your attack speed to 3,2 attacks per second and your dps to 32k, that's an awfully nice 2k more DPS or 6,5% if you prefer it that way.

A 1.7 base attack weapon (jeweled foil for example) gains 9412 DPS from haste with a level 23 elemental hit. So upon doing the math thats nearly 11K less DPS than my rounding assumed, but it's far more than 2K. It's even better if you have an even faster attacking weapon due to local mods.

Base attack of the weapon doesn't matter, it stays the same throughout the calculation, damage you do also doesn't matter if you just want to calculate the percentage of DPS haste grants you. Read that part I edited into my post. The ONLY thing that determines efficiency of Haste aura is how much IAS you got besides haste.

See, if there's one thing I learned over the years is that math rarely outright lies and deceives you only if you let it.

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raics wrote:

damage you do also doesn't matter if you just want to calculate the percentage of DPS haste grants you.

You're an idiot.
I mean really.

So someone with 1 attack per second, doing 10 damage per hit, gets the same DPS increase as someone with 5 (base) attacks per second, doing 10 damage a hit?

Nope. In this example their base DPS is 50 and 10, the one with 50 will get a high value out of haste than the one with 10.

So if a skill is contributing a LARGE quantity of base damage per hit, then yes, it scales faster with attack speed. Claiming damage is not a part of this calculation, when the calculation is about damage, is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever had someone say to me on a forum.

Next you'll tell me weight doesn't matter when you're buying dumbbells.

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Flickerflare wrote:

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raics wrote:

damage you do also doesn't matter if you just want to calculate the percentage of DPS haste grants you.

You're an idiot.
I mean really.

So someone with 1 attack per second, doing 10 damage per hit, gets the same DPS increase as someone with 5 (base) attacks per second, doing 10 damage a hit?

Nope. In this example their base DPS is 50 and 10, the one with 50 will get a high value out of haste than the one with 10.

So if a skill is contributing a LARGE quantity of base damage per hit, then yes, it scales faster with attack speed. Claiming damage is not a part of this calculation, when the calculation is about damage, is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever had someone say to me on a forum.

Next you'll tell me weight doesn't matter when you're buying dumbbells.

And you should've stayed in school, really. It would've done wonders both for your education and your manners.
Now let me do it slow and easy so even one such as you might understand these pre-school level calculations.

Your weapon has 1 base attacks per second, you have 100% increased attack speed doing 2 attacks per second doing 100 damage each, that's 200DPS.
You turn on haste giving you 113% IAS total bringing your total atacks per second to 2,13 and your DPS to 213 which is 6,5% more. Clear so far?

Now, let's have an absolutely crazy weapon with 5 base attacks per second so with our 100% IAS we hit a whooping 10 attacks per second, let's say at 5000 damage each, that's 50k DPS.
Turning on haste again brings our IAS total to 113% granting us 10,65 attacks per second and our DPS to 53250 which is, again, 6,5% more DPS.

See? different damage, different base AS, same IAS amount so, naturally, same benefit from Haste.

Now, if you still don't get it I really can't help you, get a tutor or ask some kids in the neighbourhood to show you.

Small Q: Why was it possible to use Auras at notmal cost on life with Malachais? Doesn't this helmets Desc also state, that it doubles the cost of spells and thus making it equal to sort of a 19+ BM Gem in Life use?

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raics wrote:

Your weapon has 1 base attacks per second, you have 100% increased attack speed doing 2 attacks per second doing 100 damage each, that's 200DPS.
You turn on haste giving you 113% IAS total bringing your total atacks per second to 2,13 and your DPS to 213 which is 6,5% more. Clear so far?

Yes. You gained 213 DPS.

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Raics wrote:

Now, let's have an absolutely crazy weapon with 5 base attacks per second so with our 100% IAS we hit a whooping 10 attacks per second, let's say at 5000 damage each, that's 50k DPS.
Turning on haste again brings our IAS total to 113% granting us 10,65 attacks per second and our DPS to 53250 which is, again, 6,5% more DPS.

And you gained 3250 DPS.

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Flickerflare wrote:

Oh, in a void, yes every build gets the same amount out of 13% more attack speed, but look at it this way.

You gained 6.5% more DPS. The percent gain is the same. However 3250 is more damage than 213. I stated that you get more out of casting haste with Elemental Hit than most other skills, because the DPS contributed by Elemental Hit is more then most skills.

So in conclusion. [Mod Edit: Removed]

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Flickerflare wrote:

You gained 6.5% more DPS. The percent gain is the same. However 3250 is more damage than 213. I stated that you get more out of casting haste with Elemental Hit than most other skills, because the DPS contributed by Elemental Hit is more then most skills.

So in conclusion. [Mod Edit: Removed]

Ok, one more try and I give up.

Early in game, if you do 100 damage and take a 10% melee damage node you do 110 damage.
Late in game, if you do 10000 damage and take a 10% melee damage node you do 11000 damage.

Is the node more valuable late game than early? No. Why? Because game content scales, so your damage also scales, check that concept out, might be novel and fun to you. If you do 10k dps 1k is a nice boost, if you do 50k dps 1k more is negligible

If anything, the node is more valuable early because your other bonuses to damage, like the one strength grants is low. With every extra damage node you take you get less benefit per point, first ones you take almost act as 'more' bonus while last ones give you a fraction of their value per passive point.

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raics wrote:

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Flickerflare wrote:

You gained 6.5% more DPS. The percent gain is the same. However 3250 is more damage than 213. I stated that you get more out of casting haste with Elemental Hit than most other skills, because the DPS contributed by Elemental Hit is more then most skills.

So in conclusion. [Mod Edit: Removed]

Ok, one more try and I give up.

Early in game, if you do 100 damage and take a 10% melee damage node you do 110 damage.
Late in game, if you do 10000 damage and take a 10% melee damage node you do 11000 damage.

Is the node more valuable late game than early? No. Why? Because game content scales, so your damage also scales, check that concept out, might be novel and fun to you. If you do 10k dps 1k is a nice boost, if you do 50k dps 1k more is negligible

If anything, the node is more valuable early because your other bonuses to damage, like the one strength grants is low. With every extra damage node you take you get less benefit per point, first ones you take almost act as 'more' bonus while last ones give you a fraction of their value per passive point.

If you take two builds at the exact same point in the game, then the scaling argument is irrelevant.

Who gets more out of haste, an Ice Spear Caster, or an Elemental Hit Bowrauder? Both characters are level 100 for this example.

The answer is the Elemental Hit Bowrauder because they will get a higher DPS increase from using it.

Please THINK because you're not arguing as well as you think you are.

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Flickerflare wrote:

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raics wrote:

Ok, one more try and I give up.

Early in game, if you do 100 damage and take a 10% melee damage node you do 110 damage.
Late in game, if you do 10000 damage and take a 10% melee damage node you do 11000 damage.

Is the node more valuable late game than early? No. Why? Because game content scales, so your damage also scales, check that concept out, might be novel and fun to you. If you do 10k dps 1k is a nice boost, if you do 50k dps 1k more is negligible

If anything, the node is more valuable early because your other bonuses to damage, like the one strength grants is low. With every extra damage node you take you get less benefit per point, first ones you take almost act as 'more' bonus while last ones give you a fraction of their value per passive point.

If you take two builds at the exact same point in the game, then the scaling argument is irrelevant.

Who gets more out of haste, an Ice Spear Caster, or an Elemental Hit Bowrauder? Both characters are level 100 for this example.

The answer is the Elemental Hit Bowrauder because they will get a higher DPS increase from using it.

Please THINK because you're not arguing as well as you think you are.

Hey, I'm desperate here, I'm trying to explain the bare basics of ARPG number crunching to an insolent twerp.

And caster in general benefits from haste more than attacker because of lesser availability of cast speed compared to attack speed, that's really common knowledge.

I wanna add one thing: You always compare in percentage. This can be confusing because attack speed is not the same unit as damage (AS is usually in percent).
Obviously if you got a lot of something (e.g. damage) a small increase in something will be not much percentage gain.
E.g. if you got 100 k dps already, 2 k increased dps might seem small too you in comparison of what you had. But in absolute terms it's a lot. What you have to ask is if there is any way to get actually more percentage or absolute dps than by using haste.

And as the formula is simply a multiplication:

Attack Speed (AS) x Damage (dmg) = dps,

it is obvious that you will always increase the dps more if you can increase one of these parts more than the other.
If for example the formula is 10 x 10 = 100, you can either increase AS by 0.13 with haste resulting in 11.3 x 10 = 113, or you can increase dmg by 1.3 (or 0.13 in percentage) resulting in the same 10 x 11.3 = 113.

Now this is the reason that you wanna have a good balance between both. If you got high attack speed already but low dmg, more attack speed (maybe an increase of 13%) will not increase the formula by much, whereas more damage (e.g. 20% increased dmg) will increase the formula by more.
So ideally you wanna have the situation where both is balanced to maximize dps. raics was right that haste kind of fades in comparison to faster attacks gem/multistrike etc. But if you don't use these gems it's actually pretty good. On the passive tree there are very few nodes with >= 12% ias (berserking, acceleration etc), so it's not too bad. Moreover if you attack faster you also leech more which increases survivability. Let's not forget that