Why do we not have an exalted exhange like how STO has a dilithium exchange?

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Andromansis wrote:

I have asked and repeatably asked other users for an acceptable solution.

There is no solution to something you cannot influence, I am repeating yet again. Because you might missed it last time, I'll repeat: If a game puts up a RMT service, the gold traders will simply lower their prices.

I also still can't grasp how you can possibly believe that the idiocy you're suggesting can solve anything at all. It would only make things worse, this has been repeated through the thread multiple times, including by Mark.

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Andromansis wrote:

Then I've asked some more.

We answered some more, exactly the same as before. You're just ignorant, even if you try to make your sentences sound intelligent and educated.

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Andromansis wrote:

I appreciate GGG's commitment to integrity and am quite irrevocably done trying to discuss anything with this vitriolic community.

Good.

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Andromansis wrote:

I did not present the solution as the only solution and would not have even tried to address it unless I believe that there was at least one good solution which is obtainable within the ethos set out by GGG and subscribed to by much of the community.

You never provided a solution to begin with, you only believe that what you suggested would solve the problem, which is delusional.

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Andromansis wrote:

I have lost all faith in the community, and don't worry... I will not be suggesting anything again.

Good.

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Andromansis wrote:

I do appreciate your time and thought in replying to this thread and your commitment to integrity and the core values of your company, especially when any other businessman would have seen the original proposal and started wringing his hands and thinking about how much money they were going to make.

Oh this is just comedy gold. Sadly by forum rules I can't answer the way I want to this, but trust me, you'd be a terrible business man.

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Andromansis wrote:

Anyway, I wish you all the best, I'm going to go muck about in my shop thread (if I can even find it).

I hope you find it and stay there.

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AnnanFay wrote:

"

Chypre wrote:

[...]
If you notice a transaction of 15 exalted for nothing, it would be suspicious, but 15 for a Lionseye would be fine.
[...]

Good enough behavioral analysis can fix most problems.

There's just too much data for humans and even good enough software is still hard.

@Devs
I would be fascinated to hear data on how many trades per day there are going on in POE.

I'm not saying it would be trivial to implement, but I really think it could work. Similar things like Mechanical Turk are working.

It isn't about stopping all or even most RMT trade, just enough that it has a major impact. If users can filter by trades where only 1 person is offering anything, where exalted or other high orbs are involved and things like that, it gets the number of trades to investigate further down to more manageable levels.

Another principle to implement is a web of trust type of thing. We're going to have trading through the website eventually right? See how the Block Explorer site actually serves as a sort of advertisement? The bitcoin blockchain is sort of spammed by tons of SatoshiDice (gambling) transactions and a URL to their site is placed alongside those transactions.

What if I was a legit player, knew I had no involvement with RMT, and didn't mind my account name, link to shop, what guild I was in, etc. to be shown? This could, maybe as a second-level thing appear along with some sort of statistics about the user, like "Has made 753 trades, 15 one-sided (X traded for nothing), 3 flagged, zero strikes, account is a silver supporter active for 6 months with 5 characters over level 60".

This is going to look a lot less suspicious than "Has made 2350 trades, 903 one-sided, 340 flagged, 12 strikes, account is a free user active for 2 weeks with one character over level 60." or whatever. I am more likely to explore a few of the trades of the second account and see if I uncover something.

The in-game economy blows now, but I was very active in trade channel right after OB hit. I still wasn't making more than 10 trades/day if that and almost none through the forums. I can't imagine many people are really making significantly more than that. There's a generally legit range of trades/day that most people are going to fall into, anywhere from zero (who cares?) to X (possibly suspicious).

There would be some fear from legit players of getting banned for no good reason, but the higher levels of investigation can easily avoid that. Moderator+ can (or could, not sure what tools GGG has now) look at the circumstances surrounding a transaction. I've traded some decent items to friends for nothing, but there was a conversation there, "Yeah, I am not using my 18% detonate dead, you can borrow it.", "Cool, wow the quality bonus is cast speed, that will help a lot on my totem."

Just the fact that the orb seller is going to have to start to ask people to put up anything of value in trade for their own safety and to avoid their whole network of trades being detected is going to hurt their business. There's hundreds of other games games they can go exploit and suffering losses to their stockpiles will push prices up.

Based on some spam in game earlier, chaos are $0.50 and GCP are at $2. Since, I don't buy game shit I can't really say but double or triple that price and it seems a lot less worth it. I don't think that most of the people using RMT or becoming diamond supports are millionaires. Most just have a decent amount of money or a good job and their time is worth more than that spent grinding. Knowing there is even a non-zero chance that they will lose their whole account for using RMT is going to be a significant deterrent.

GGG standing on principle against p2w is respectable, but, insofar as they fail to prevent its impact on my own gaming, it doesn't mean anything to me. I see chat spammed and am even getting PM's about RMT sites. If they can't stop RMT, but do it "legit" buying from GGG and that means I am not going to get spammed, whatever.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Our integrity, and all the trust, respect and faith put in us by our players and the people who've supported us through closed and open beta, past and present, because we've specifically taken a stance against ever doing this, and specifically promised our users we wouldn't do this.

I, for one, consider that far too high a price.

Forcing the RMT sites to compete with an official way to pay real money for in-game advancement does not solve the problem, because the problem isn't that people can p2w via RMT sites, it's that people can p2w at all.

I have a lot of respect for you for taking this stance. It's tough and it's very well reasoned. But I have to ask, is that how it works? Paying to win is going to exist in some form or another. Some people might pay by multiboxing. Some might pay with donations from friends. Some might pay by grinding easy content. Some might pay by finding exploits. And yes, some might pay by RMT. Who is to determine which forms are legitimate?

Is flipping items really playing the game? Is scamming people playing the game? Is exploiting the chaos orb formula playing the game? Is multiboxing playing the game? Is having my experienced friend give me his hand-me-downs playing the game? If there's any trading at all there will be some way to gain an advantage that could be seen as stepping outside of the realm of the game itself.

Take the most legitimate strategy. Self-found loot only. Now from here say my friend gives me his hand-me-downs. Next step is I exploit several friends into giving me their drops because they think I'm such a nice guy. From here it's difficult to determine if they're doing it because they like me or if it's because I'm paying them. The end result is going to be the same. Someone is gonna blow up high level content with an overgeared character. Whether they earn it, whether it's given to them, or whether they pay for it.

Compare this to your academic example where the undesirable result is that someone fraudulently becomes a professional without being qualified and can potentially cause many mistakes due to their illicit qualifications. For a game, the only comparison is that some people feel cheated because they didn't have a friend to give them overpowered gear.

People are going to RMT. But I'd at least prefer that they support GGG in doing so instead of these gold sellers that operate via hacking accounts and other means.

Here is what GGG is telling the playerbase: Items are more important than skill in PoE.

This is a design philosophy, and I feel it's a bad one.

That's what it boils down to though. If GGG felt skill was the more important factor they would allow more ways to acquire items, such as a currency exchange that also helps lessen in-game spam and illicit trading, which also lessens account hacking attempts, phishing, etc.

So the message I'm getting from GGG is this: items are more important than skill in this game.

This philosophy is fundamentally flawed, as the OP is pointing out, because it is literally impossible to stop ANY online game with trading from being P2W.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

"

AintCare wrote:

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

the problem isn't that people can p2w via RMT sites, it's that people can p2w at all.

really? then make everything account bound.... you definitely break your game, but hey not2win AT ALL

are even devs delusional in here? honestly

P2W being the problem at hand in this discussion does not mean P2W is the only concern.

Murder will never be completely eliminated by traditional methods of law enforcement, but could be completely eliminated by keeping every person in a small padded room and providing them the necessities of life without letting them come into physical contact with another person. That doesn't mean that's a reasonable solution to the problem because the problems with that system are greater than the one it solves.

The goal of people being able to actually play the game as intended is more important than the goal of people not being able to pay real money to gain advantage. Thus everything being account bound is not a reasonable solution.

When I read this, I felt really really sorry for Mark that has to spell out these things that should be OBVIOUS to anyone over the age of 13 instead of spending time working on the game I love playing.

All I have to say is the GGG posts completely owned the OP and the supporters of P2W.
Great job GGG, it is easy to sell out, I hope you never do.

Well it's not exactly reassuring when GGG cites a problem that is just human nature and undeniably something that will never be rectifiable as a reason for their design choices.

How would a currency exchange hurt PoE? I fail to see the reasoning.

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soccercasanova wrote:

All I have to say is the GGG posts completely owned the OP and the supporters of P2W.
Great job GGG, it is easy to sell out, I hope you never do.

Flange up a little tighter, there, you haven't achieved a perfect seal yet.

"

whrsmycoffee wrote:

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

P2W being the problem at hand in this discussion does not mean P2W is the only concern.

Murder will never be completely eliminated by traditional methods of law enforcement, but could be completely eliminated by keeping every person in a small padded room and providing them the necessities of life without letting them come into physical contact with another person. That doesn't mean that's a reasonable solution to the problem because the problems with that system are greater than the one it solves.

The goal of people being able to actually play the game as intended is more important than the goal of people not being able to pay real money to gain advantage. Thus everything being account bound is not a reasonable solution.

When I read this, I felt really really sorry for Mark that has to spell out these things that should be OBVIOUS to anyone over the age of 13 instead of spending time working on the game I love playing.

Gotta love how the devs responses are always intelligent, reasoned, logical, versus the casual "radiowave" whining that is nothing but, except constant.
You could draw a line on X,Y plane for the whining and demands by these D3 casuals, first they start with small things, going for bigger and bigger demands, like instanced loot, until ultimately they are advocating for implementing an AH to PoE, like user Tarrnation already remotely suggests behind his curtains.

Thank god that people behind GGG ARE intelligent, reasoned and logical and therefore seeing past those demands and the inevitable destruction of PoE by listening to these asshats would bring.

"

All I have to say is the GGG posts completely owned the OP and the supporters of P2W.
Great job GGG, it is easy to sell out, I hope you never do.

+1

"

mushioov wrote:

by these D3 casuals

Your post lost all credibility when you said this. This isn't about "casual" vs. "hardcore". As the OP said numerous times, this is a design philosophy discussion. You appear to be largely failing to understand that.

"

Thank god that people behind GGG ARE intelligent, reasoned and logical and therefore seeing past those demands and the inevitable destruction of PoE by listening to these asshats would bring.

haha nice brainwash lol. Last place where is saw that stupid, brainless devotion wass D3 forums. Ironically.

PS. Game is on the path of destruction atm because lack of fixes and GGG silence about broken game mechanics (especially so called 'crafting' and so called 'endgame' and that game favors botting, multiboxing, currency RMT and 6man party runs without any difficulty and challenge). There is no even need for P2W and pseudo philosophical dev responses that have nothing to do with game design.