Blizzard Games died yesterday!

This thread is deep, I like it

"

Archangel591 wrote:

People are once again deciding on their opinions about the entire content of a Movie from start to end by watching a two minute long trailer.

Yawn.

"I hate this movie!"
"Yeah? Why? What part of it?"
"Oh I saw the trailer and the main character just doesn't sound and look right for the part. The action scenes seemed a bit dull and it just didn't seem that interesting"

"..."

And yet how often can we now ascertain, with relative certainty, the bulk of a movie from the trailer these days? And I don't necessarily mean just by judging the trailer in and of itself -- sometimes you can tell by what's *not* in the trailer too. Or by certain elements. Certain types of music.

It's like that old chestnut, 'don't judge a book by its cover.' Fair enough, but if the cover has a dragon on it and a name like 'Book 3 of the Gwynedion Cycle' or some crap, you can be pretty sure it's NOT going to be quite a few things. Not a murder mystery, not a cook-book, not a DIY manual for making bird baths...

And what people are doing with the D3 beta is judging a book by its first few chapters, or a movie by its first fifteen minutes. A TV series by its first couple of all-important episodes. And THAT is not unfair at all.

"

Charanjaydemyr wrote:

"

Archangel591 wrote:

People are once again deciding on their opinions about the entire content of a Movie from start to end by watching a two minute long trailer.

Yawn.

"I hate this movie!"
"Yeah? Why? What part of it?"
"Oh I saw the trailer and the main character just doesn't sound and look right for the part. The action scenes seemed a bit dull and it just didn't seem that interesting"

"..."

And yet how often can we now ascertain, with relative certainty, the bulk of a movie from the trailer these days? And I don't necessarily mean just by judging the trailer in and of itself -- sometimes you can tell by what's *not* in the trailer too. Or by certain elements. Certain types of music.

It's like that old chestnut, 'don't judge a book by its cover.' Fair enough, but if the cover has a dragon on it and a name like 'Book 3 of the Gwynedion Cycle' or some crap, you can be pretty sure it's NOT going to be quite a few things. Not a murder mystery, not a cook-book, not a DIY manual for making bird baths...

And what people are doing with the D3 beta is judging a book by its first few chapters, or a movie by its first fifteen minutes. A TV series by its first couple of all-important episodes. And THAT is not unfair at all.

Charan, generally I agree with your logic (if not your conclusions), but here I disagree with you.

I watch movie trailers yes, but I don't judge a movie until either (1) I watch it in its entirety, or (2) I receive a significant amount of feedback from others whom I trust about the movie.

Some books and movies just take a while to get into. Lord of the Rings (the book, not the movies) comes to mind. The first few chapters are pretty boring for a first-time read. Its depth of characters and storytelling cannot be appreciated until one more fully understands Tolkien's story.

Applying that to the Diablo series, if I judged Diablo 2 by the content up to the rescue of Deckard Cain, excluding cinematics and other significant story-elements, I'd say it lacked a lot of content and was relatively boring.

This is exactly what people are doing with D3, and that is not fair.

"

Tommerbob wrote:

Charan, generally I agree with your logic (if not your conclusions), but here I disagree with you.

I watch movie trailers yes, but I don't judge a movie until either (1) I watch it in its entirety, or (2) I receive a significant amount of feedback from others whom I trust about the movie.

Some books and movies just take a while to get into. Lord of the Rings (the book, not the movies) comes to mind. The first few chapters are pretty boring for a first-time read. Its depth of characters and storytelling cannot be appreciated until one more fully understands Tolkien's story.

Applying that to the Diablo series, if I judged Diablo 2 by the content up to the rescue of Deckard Cain, excluding cinematics and other significant story-elements, I'd say it lacked a lot of content and was relatively boring.

This is exactly what people are doing with D3, and that is not fair.

Generally speaking, I'm not sure if you can compare films/books to video games this way. They share similarities, but they both have pronounced differences.

One of those differences is the pacing. Video games tend to be very strong at the beginning, since that is the stage everybody will play. The further you go in a game, the less effort generally is put into those portions, since most players will not play through any given game.
Or, as TvTropes puts it much clearer: "Many developers have admitted to paying far less attention to their climaxes than they probably should, as most players don't get that far. Even some professional reviewers admit they don't play enough of the game and many reviews are based off of the early-mid parts of the game."

Take the original Half-Life or KotOR II as magnificent examples.


In that respect I think that the argument "you can only judge something when you know it in its entirety" is not entirely valid. There are many things you can take from the Beta regardless of how much of the game you got to see: The art style. The skill progression. The storytelling. The quality of voice acting. The randomness of the environment. The "hireling" system. Those just for example.

Though trailers and beginnings of games often have one thing in common: They want to showcase the best side of their product as to encourage you to watch the film/play the game.


To cap it off, Blizzard has taken pains to make their games very, very "accessible" (it's not only Diablo III). That means: They are designed so they don't take time getting into them.

"

Avireyn wrote:

In that respect I think that the argument "you can only judge something when you know it in its entirety" is not entirely valid. There are many things you can take from the Beta regardless of how much of the game you got to see: The art style. The skill progression. The storytelling. The quality of voice acting. The randomness of the environment. The "hireling" system. Those just for example.

I agree. I used that as an example in response to Charan's comment about movie trailers.

"

Avireyn wrote:

To cap it off, Blizzard has taken pains to make their games very, very "accessible" (it's not only Diablo III). That means: They are designed so they don't take time getting into them.

Yes, Blizzard gears their games toward a larger crowd than other companies, but that is largely the fault of the evolving market, not Blizzard itself.

Blizzard's motto is "easy to learn, difficult to master". This applies to every game they've made. Its why their games are not only popular, but long-lasting.

Some will say that Diablo 3 is just a dumbed-down noob-friendly game. Well, yes of course the first 1/12 of the game on Normal difficulty will be really easy. Guess what, so is Path of Exile.

I don't agree with everything Blizzard has done with Diablo 3. For example, the simplified tooltips are a complete joke. The skill interface is incomprehensibly bad. But all-in-all, they've done a damn good job.

The Diablo games' core gameplay was always at the higher levels. Most D2 players spent most of their time in Hell, not Normal. So if we judged the entirety of the Diablo 2 game experience based solely on the first 1/12 of Normal, would that be a fair judgment? It wouldn't be fair or accurate of Diablo 2, and its certainly not fair or accurate of Diablo 3.

"

Tommerbob wrote:

Yes, Blizzard gears their games toward a larger crowd than other companies, but that is largely the fault of the evolving market, not Blizzard itself.

Agreed. It's something Charan also said: It's just the state the industry is in. Most games today either cost millions (and thus, you have to aim for mass compatibility) or are small projects. And if you want to look for games like they were 15 years back, you'll more likely find them with the indie devs. Like PoE.

"

Blizzard's motto is "easy to learn, difficult to master". This applies to every game they've made. Its why their games are not only popular, but long-lasting.

Some will say that Diablo 3 is just a dumbed-down noob-friendly game. Well, yes of course the first 1/12 of the game on Normal difficulty will be really easy. Guess what, so is Path of Exile. If you expect it otherwise, then you fit in with the crowd whom I referenced above.


I don't agree with everything Blizzard has done with Diablo 3. For example, the simplified tooltips are a complete joke. The skill interface is incomprehensibly bad. But all-in-all, they've done a damn good job.

While I agree with your over-all assessment, I feel that the starting point (easy to learn) has progressed so far as to be insulting to many "older" gamers. I like to be taken seriously by my game and not as if I need help putting on my pants the right way (I mostly manage that).
Maybe I'M biased in that respect since I play WoW on a semi-regular basis. That game was "easy to learn, medium to master". I'm not a great gamer and I never felt particularly taxed or in over my head. But I had to apply myself somewhat in order to avoid failing.
But they simplified that game to the point where you don't learn a single thing until you hit level cap. It's almost impossible to die. And by that, I feel somewhat insulted.
And somehow the Diablo III Beta gave me the very same vibe. Now, it's entirely possible that the difficulty picks up gradually, but if WoW is anything to go by, it's like running over a perfectly flat field only to encounter a steep cliff at end level.

"

The Diablo games' core gameplay was always at the higher levels. Most D2 players spent most of their time in Hell, not Normal. So if we judged the entirety of the Diablo 2 game experience based solely on the first 1/12 of Normal, would that be a fair judgment? It wouldn't be fair or accurate of Diablo 2, and its certainly not fair or accurate of Diablo 3.

Well, Diablo I was not mainly about "higher levels". There wasn't even itemisation beyond normal, and class balance was abysmal ("linear warriors, quadratic wizards"-style).
Even Diablo II only got itemisation beyond Nightmare with LoD.
And further endgame content was introduced in still later patches.


I'm not saying that end game isn't what kept Diablo II: LoD fresh all these years. I'm fairly certain that it's the single most important thing for many veterans.
But initially, neither Diablo had been designed with End game as the main part of the game. It developed this way because people just kept playing, though.


And to that end, I find it rather sad that Blizzard really shifts the focus of their development to endgame only (it's the same thing in WoW) while apparently completely disregarding everything else.

Personally, if the first difficulty is designed for ARPG beginners, I want to have the option of skipping it. Because, as I said: I want to be engaged by the game, not play through it annoyed and bored, just trying to get to the fun part (especially the first time through, when everything is shiny and new!).

"

Avireyn wrote:

Personally, if the first difficulty is designed for ARPG beginners, I want to have the option of skipping it. Because, as I said: I want to be engaged by the game, not play through it annoyed and bored, just trying to get to the fun part (especially the first time through, when everything is shiny and new!).

Do you get the option to skip the first difficulty level in Path of Exile?? Didn't think so.

What you're asking here doesn't make sense. You want to be dumped into Nightmare as a level 1?? You wouldn't even be able to kill the first damn zombie you came across.

The entire game is balanced so that at the end of Normal you can proceed to Nightmare and then at the end of Nightmare to Hell and then you will probably need to farm Hell a bit to be able to get anywhere in Inferno.

Those of you judging the game from this single tutorial section insofar as difficulty haven't got a clue, sorry.

I've mentioned this before. There was a bug in the beta that allowed someone to get passed a locked gate and access content beyond the beta limits (Fields of Misery) and spread the waypoints. I managed to play this area. The zone is bigger with more points of interest, new monsters with new tactics (such as possessed trees that spawn little plants that explode for poison dmg) and new champion and elite affixes which can kill you if you aren't paying attention.

You'll die even on normal later on.

I'll say it again first dungeon boss to first dungeon boss POE wtfpwns D3 to expect any game to deliver a different product instead of more of the same is naive fanboy thinking. This doesn't even breech the subject of full fledged ui supported and this rampant pay to win found in diablo 3, no thanks, I'll take the horror arpg with a materia system, character building and a firm stance against dev supported and coded pay to win transaction. If in a few years time, d3 is all that, I will simply crush those old school diablo 3 players with my wallet, until that time GGG gets donations and lots of them by me because they are a group of gamers that crafted some arpg gold right here, and I want more of their product.

"

Reznorz wrote:

I'll say it again first dungeon boss to first dungeon boss POE wtfpwns D3 to expect any game to deliver a different product instead of more of the same is naive fanboy thinking. This doesn't even breech the subject of full fledged ui supported and this rampant pay to win found in diablo 3, no thanks, I'll take the horror arpg with a materia system, character building and a firm stance against dev supported and coded pay to win transaction. If in a few years time, d3 is all that, I will simply crush those old school diablo 3 players with my wallet, until that time GGG gets donations and lots of them by me because they are a group of gamers that crafted some arpg gold right here, and I want more of their product.

Typical elitist internet drivel. Next.

"

alcovitch wrote:

Do you get the option to skip the first difficulty level in Path of Exile?? Didn't think so.

Curiously, I find the first difficulty in PoE far more engaging than its counterpart in Diablo III. I must have played through Normal twenty times at least. I still find it okay.
I was bored with Diablo III's normal difficulty while on my first playthrough.

"

What you're asking here doesn't make sense. You want to be dumped into Nightmare as a level 1?? You wouldn't even be able to kill the first damn zombie you came across.

The entire game is balanced so that at the end of Normal you can proceed to Nightmare and then at the end of Nightmare to Hell and then you will probably need to farm Hell a bit to be able to get anywhere in Inferno.

Why doesn't it make sense? A lot of other games manage making the tutorial section optional. Why not Diablo III?
That doesn't mean I want to start in Nightmare. I don't even get how you'd think that (other than you thinking that I have no clue about game design).
But it's certainly not the best design to make the "tutorial" a)apparently take so much of the game and b)make you play through it with every single character.

"

Those of you judging the game from this single tutorial section insofar as difficulty haven't got a clue, sorry.

You're making things awfully easy for you. I'm not passing a fully fledged judgement. I'm inferring from what I've seen so far of D3 and from the way Blizzard shapes its games. Had you read my posting completely, you'd have noticed that I even kept open the possibility that difficulty might ramp up gradually, and that this would be a good thing.

"

I've mentioned this before. There was a bug in the beta that allowed someone to get passed a locked gate and access content beyond the beta limits (Fields of Misery) and spread the waypoints. I managed to play this area. The zone is bigger with more points of interest, new monsters with new tactics (such as possessed trees that spawn little plants that explode for poison dmg) and new champion and elite affixes which can kill you if you aren't paying attention.

You'll die even on normal later on.

I think the fact that you have to point out that "something can kill me [later] if I'm not paying attention" rather corroborates my view on D3's first difficulty setting.

Having to pay attention is usually something that's a given in any game.