This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

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Sickness wrote:

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miljan wrote:

The biggest error some people think is that removing skill points fix anything with balance.
Reason why d3 skills are balanced and you will use more skills are:
1. resource management, you need 1 skill to generate resource, and 1 and more that uses it
2. long cool downs so you can't spam skill that does highest dmg, but need to use somthing else
3. all skills have weapon dmg % increase, so they are easyle balanced

This 3 reason are why you use more skills, and why every skill is useful. It's not because of removing skill points and never will be.

Someone said meaningful choices in d3, and that is corect, but adding skill points does not remove that at all, it only makes possible for people that dont like min/max to make less meaningful choices that will be less viable, but still posible to play.

Did you just completely skip Autocthons posts?

No, because there was nothing important in that post for me. He continus to talk about unbalanced skills and atribut points in d2.

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miljan wrote:

No, because there was nothing important in that post for me. He continus to talk about unbalanced skills and atribut points in d2.

You clearly didn't understand it then, becuase he explain perfectly well the problem with skill points.

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Sickness wrote:

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miljan wrote:

No, because there was nothing important in that post for me. He continus to talk about unbalanced skills and atribut points in d2.

You clearly didn't understand it then, becuase he explain perfectly well the problem with skill points.

The thing is he doesnt understand whats the problem. I can prove it easy to you. You played d2. What if you removed skill points from game, so you chose only 5 skills like in d3 (well d3 has 6). Would anything change? No, you will still have same builds like with skill points. It would change nothing, becouse points are not the problem.

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RodHull wrote:

Then sorry to say but your naive. Sure GGG are gamers, pretty much all developers are. Sure they want to create a great fun game (most developers do) sure what they've done so far is a great achievement for an indie team. But if you think they can survive long term on optional monetary support for pure vanity items you are dreaming. Somewhere down the line they will have to add probably controversial stuff to the cash shop to stay afloat. Thats not defeatist, thats reality. There is not another F2P game in existence which offers just cosmetic stuff and earns enough to support itself.

League of Legends is a F2P game with pure vanity items (unless you consider the ability to unlock champs you could unlock for free as "buying power".), and it's doing quite well. In fact, I know one of the original riot employees, who got stock options when he left Riot, and was ecstatic when 10cent bought Riot - he made a killing.

TF2 is another F2P game with "early unlocks" and "vanity" items that does exceptionally well.

I predict Firefall will do quite well, but it's not out yet, so that's speculation. Then again, I don't know yet what they will offer for MT, so I don't for a fact know that it won't be P2W... But I'm pretty darn sure.

Shall I go on?

Edit: That said, I expect certain controversial items myself - not because it can't be done, but because I think the temptation, both for GGG and the players, is hard to resist. It's SO hard to change more than a few passives, I won't be at all suprised if GGG offers a MT to do a full or not-full-but-repeatable respec (say, 10 points per transaction or something.). Or a MT to allow you to start at level 30 with Cruel unlocked. Or whatever.

Diablo 3 ruined Diablo 3 for me.

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miljan wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

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miljan wrote:

No, because there was nothing important in that post for me. He continus to talk about unbalanced skills and atribut points in d2.

You clearly didn't understand it then, becuase he explain perfectly well the problem with skill points.

The thing is he doesnt understand whats the problem. I can prove it easy to you. You played d2. What if you removed skill points from game, so you chose only 5 skills like in d3 (well d3 has 6). Would anything change? No, you will still have same builds like with skill points. It would change nothing, becouse points are not the problem.

Skill points are a problem because anytime a skill is on a sliding scale (as I pointed out something like 3 times in this thread alone) doing anything but maxing that skill is only a NEGATIVE impact on your build. It never has a positive impact on DPS output because skills have cast times.

In no skill point system has there ever been more than a handful of actual viable builds. And the games wherein there were "viable" jack-of-all-trade builds it was because of a terribly balanced broken mechanic (Frostfire builds in WoW).

It does not matter what the system is. It does not mater if the skills do flat damage or %Weapon damage or %DPS damage. As long as there is a sliding spectrum of damage on skills maxing a single skill WILL ALWAYS BE SUPERIOR to spreading points out.

Let me reiterate: D3's system is functionally equivalent to ANY SKILL POINT SYSTEM IN ANY GAME. In both systems you are picking 4-6 skills that you will use, 1-2 are actual DPS skills the rest are oh-shit buttons.

And I'll give you a hint about D3: Skills do not have CD's unless they are either

1) DoT
2) Panic buttons/steroids
3) Utility/Capstones

I think there's like 1 offensive skill for each class with any CD on it.

After having played the beta for D3 over the weekend, I'd have to say I'm really looking forward to it.

I have mixed feelings on the new character system. Part of the 'fun' of D2 was experimenting with different builds and ideas. I think some of the most powerful builds in the game worked simply because Blizzard didn't anticipate players picking certain skills and gear combinations. It was pretty unbalanced at times. I do like the idea of skills being usable throughout the whole game, rather than just being prereqs or synergies for later skills. I really like the graphics, I think I'm in the minority there.

I had a lot of concerns about the changed mechanics from D2 to D3 as well, but I found what I thought was a pretty good post about it. I'm willing to throw some money at it and take a chance on it.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3811455085?page=1

PoE is an amazing game. I can't wait to see more acts and a story develop within the game. The skill system here is amazing and the ability to pick any character and take it in any direction you like is fantastic. I hope we'll see some more content added soon!

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__Z__ wrote:

Torin:

I'll stay polite... I know what I mean if you don't, shut up and don't try to explain to me that it can't be any comparison with RPG games, or that I can't have such a feeling!
I played these since 1980... now that there's no place for it, I play online with other people, there's no RP ok.
but we used to also play with the games mechanics, and tweak, twink our characters, mostly with ADD (Advanced Dungeon and Dragons) without RP considerations. just for monsters (or pvp) bashing sake.

D3 or POE will not be born if there wasn't Pencil and dice game before (you prefer pencil and dice over tabletop?)...
they was the crucible of fantasy imagination and the begining of "mechanics" game brainstorming.

I come to this thread without aggressivity and I quit it with a bunch of it...

I have to say that your kind of reply keep me away (again) from D3...

I am not sure how to respond to this lol. If my first post which was totally benign managed to piss you off like this you might get a heart attack after next one and you need to keep your health in your old age.

Anyways, I wasn't telling you how to do something or not, just providing a fact that aRPG games are about something totally different then PnP games.

While it is true that all computer RPG started as PnP now they are totally different except few exceptions. And certainly no Diablo game was representative of PnP.

As far as if you are going to play D3 because of me or not, I don't care. My post was not about trying to talk you into playing D3. I don't care what you or others do.

As been said here stat points in D2 were useless mechanic as only stats you needed were minimum equipment stats and everything else into vitality. The only reason they have them in D3 is because of D2 fanboys and to have more mods for items. Can you imagine the outcry if they got rid of them completely?!

The way they work they are just a middleman for the real thing (bonus damage or bonus HP).

PoE also did better then D2 for stat points usage but still not good enough.

The best way to use them if we need to have them is to base skills/spells around them. Make spells and skills combine their effect with their base stats to get the end effect.

In PoE skills give bonus damage to weapons and spells get more damage by skill gem level, but stats are just requirements for both items and skill gems in addition to some smaller bonus to different things. But if they made skills do their effect based on its base stat that would have been a better use of stats and they would have been even more meaningful.

And in PnP stats are often used for roleplaying purposes and have greatest use there. This is where they came from but cRPG have automatically taken them to use without actually thinking if they really needed them.

Read most of the replies, here are my thoughts:

I played D2 for years and years, and even throughout late high school/college I would still pick it up for a couple weeks until I grew bored and did something else. It's just that good of a game.

My credentials: I'm a huge Blizz fan: Warcraft RTS series, Starcraft series, Diablo series, even played WoW for a couple years.

Quite frankly, Blizz is appealing to a group of gamers that did not exist during those older times. That's fine with me, marketing is marketing and people need to make a living somehow.

The issue I have is that by making the game more accessible for others, it makes it less accessible for myself. The world doesn't revolve around me, fine, whatever.

It's really no problem for me, I just play other games now. I spent ten bucks on PoE just by gauging the activity/attitude of the forum community. If any of you have ever spent time playing an MMO, you'll know that this is an insanely stupid gamble.

Well, I'm here now. And I'm having fun, so I'll continue to do so until I stop having fun.

I highly doubt I'll ever experience that incredible immersion from when I was a kid, but certain things can get you close, or at least give you a kind reminder.