How Poe elites ruined Bestiary AND Incursion - Bestiary you will be missed.

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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Lewnatic wrote:

a.) Powercreep: By Adding complexity in the play-style the game shifts it focus from Meta and clear speed towards rewarding the player for focus and slow play and to not one-shot everything. This was of course highly criticized by a lot of streamers, redditers, botters and RMTers because it felt "clunky".

PoE indeed suffers from massive powercreep, but it cant be fixed with mere league mechanics. Adding bestiary mechanics into game, "balanced" around oneshotting full screen and running at supersonic speeds, causes only frustration.
Whole game must be rebalanced. Enemies should have less quantity, higher HP and lower damage. Damage scaling for both players and monsters should be revised, especially - lots of multilicative damage multipliers, that can easily bring it to absurd levels.
Sure, players will always build for maximum clearspeed. But PoE allows too high clearspeed, futhermore, it severely punishes builds that kill slowly (because enemies have too high damage, and killing them first actually makes you MORE "tanky", than investing into defences). In other ARPG games, like Grim Dawn, it's impossible to have such absurd clearspeed, because AoE and movespeeds are kinda limited. Also, tankiness is much more encouraged there, because in endgame mode (Crucible), if you die, you lose a lion's share of your loot.

Yeah the thing is/was that bestiary was exactly the right way to counter powercreep. Adding a new optional layer of hard Content that offers you nice deterministic rewards Some of the beasts where pretty awesome and having a DPS wall in a map can be pretty awesome. Some bots got screwed by that but thats exactly the point of DPS wall. We nee monster like in monsterhunter where you have to remember monster animations with high HP or you are screwed. Bestiary had stuff like this in a way which was pretty cool.

Well I read OP and have to say it was a little off.

Bestiary and Incursion fail due to a new design plan. The new design is to put as many barriers between the player and the fun as possible.

Legacy > tokens to see all the previous leagues where you kill stuff and get loot.
Harbinger > kill stuff get loot
Breach > kill stuff and get loot.
Abyss > kill stuff get loot.

Piles of fun!

Now if bestiary was Kill stuff and capture a zoo, which you can also use for crafting, that would have been piles of fun.
Of course after you add
You need nets.
Nets you have to buy or find.
Nets that miss.
Nets that wear out (sometime instantly) and leave the animal enraged and unable to be netted. Nets to do not work when critter is culled.
Rare nets for all those time the critter died before you could net it.
Those rare nets can miss also.
Boss fights require a super rare mob to be captured with said nets.

After all those barriers between you and the fun, the fun is replaced by disappointment and rage.

Incursion: Build a temple and loot it. (Sound like huge fun!)
But then they add all the barriers:
It is timed (this mechanic in games has been hated for decades)
The stones do not drop to unlock doors
Instant death can happen (GL HC players!)
Your gear is not good enough lowbie.. or person with the wrong build. or the poor.

After all those barriers between you and the fun, the fun is replaced by disappointment and rage.

Next league
Aquatica: Visit the underwater kingdom and kill the new end boss "the dreaded Wet Larry ruler of the sea". (sound like fun!)
But then they add all the barriers:
You can only hold your breath for 30 sec before drowning.
You are poisoned and your life perpetually times down.
You have to always escort a death seeking AI "Expendable Phil, guide to the waters". If he dies, you die.
No map and the area you're in rearranges itself when off screen.
Player randomly explodes and dies.

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Painsponge wrote:

Spoiler

Well I read OP and have to say it was a little off.

Bestiary and Incursion fail due to a new design plan. The new design is to put as many barriers between the player and the fun as possible.

Legacy > tokens to see all the previous leagues where you kill stuff and get loot.
Harbinger > kill stuff get loot
Breach > kill stuff and get loot.
Abyss > kill stuff get loot.

Piles of fun!

Now if bestiary was Kill stuff and capture a zoo, which you can also use for crafting, that would have been piles of fun.
Of course after you add
You need nets.
Nets you have to buy or find.
Nets that miss.
Nets that wear out (sometime instantly) and leave the animal enraged and unable to be netted. Nets to do not work when critter is culled.
Rare nets for all those time the critter died before you could net it.
Those rare nets can miss also.
Boss fights require a super rare mob to be captured with said nets.

After all those barriers between you and the fun, the fun is replaced by disappointment and rage.

Incursion: Build a temple and loot it. (Sound like huge fun!)
But then they add all the barriers:
It is timed (this mechanic in games has been hated for decades)
The stones do not drop to unlock doors
Instant death can happen (GL HC players!)
Your gear is not good enough lowbie.. or person with the wrong build. or the poor.

After all those barriers between you and the fun, the fun is replaced by disappointment and rage.

Next league
Aquatica: Visit the underwater kingdom and kill the new end boss "the dreaded Wet Larry ruler of the sea". (sound like fun!)
But then they add all the barriers:
You can only hold your breath for 30 sec before drowning.
You are poisoned and your life perpetually times down.
You have to always escort a death seeking AI "Expendable Phil, guide to the waters". If he dies, you die.
No map and the area you're in rearranges itself when off screen.
Player randomly explodes and dies.

Great analysis that also gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

>Next League: Aquatique league where you need to collect oxygen bubbles by standing next to the oxygen source to fll up your oxygen bubble to not die.

Please tencent we need this to kill the speed meta!

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Lewnatic wrote:

>Next League: Aquatique league where you need to collect oxygen bubbles by standing next to the oxygen source to fll up your oxygen bubble to not die.

Please tencent we need this to kill the speed meta!

The only way to kill that meta is to come with a mechanic where you get the same loot and XP per hour going slow as you do going full tilt.
This is easy but removes the fun "Every second you stand still will increase your loot quantity and quality as well as XP by 1% for 4 seconds. Going AFK resets this" see easy fix to speed. Making it fun too is where it gets difficult.

Beast league was an easy fix. Just remove the barriers to fun and let it function like previous leagues. No more nets, kill critters to capture. Done. Just make it that the only critters that capture are the event critters and uniques.

The one thing I really wished they'd kept from beast was Einhar Frey. He had great dialog.
They could have made him an 9th (10th? not sure how many there are including PVP guy) master in your hideout. Of just had him occasionally show up in your hide out punching a critter in the face until he subdues it, then he shares more of his "knowledge" with you before leaving.

If Einhar was a master though I have no idea what he'd do mission wise. I'd hope they would be Einhar level hilarious mistake missions. No idea what his crafting would be.

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The only way to kill that meta is to come with a mechanic where you get the same loot and XP per hour going slow as you do going full tilt.
This is easy but removes the fun "Every second you stand still will increase your loot quantity and quality as well as XP by 1% for 4 seconds. Going AFK resets this" see easy fix to speed. Making it fun too is where it gets difficult.

Thats just wrong. There are other games that do it already right. Original Sins 2 for example. You are getting nice rewards if you do certain things. If you only kill everything you miss some of the content...but the cool thing is DOS is not punishing meta gamers if they kill everything. They still could do it, they will simply miss some of the content. But in the other hand if you only play passively, you miss some of the meta content (like killing shaper, because DPS is to low)

Bestiary did exatly the same. You could determistically got very nice rewards by playing focused, like one of the best armors and corrupts in the game, simply by pressing a button and not oneshotting everything.

Not beeing able to oneshot stuffs seems to really trigger this community lately and this is a bit concerning.

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Lewnatic wrote:

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The only way to kill that meta is to come with a mechanic where you get the same loot and XP per hour going slow as you do going full tilt.
This is easy but removes the fun "Every second you stand still will increase your loot quantity and quality as well as XP by 1% for 4 seconds. Going AFK resets this" see easy fix to speed. Making it fun too is where it gets difficult.

Thats just wrong. There are other games that do it already right. Original Sins 2 for example.

Isn't Original Sin a RPG and not an ARPG (Action RPG, like Diablo)? I checked Steam and do not seem to own it
If it is an RPG and you want POE to be like it, that would require a change to an entirely different genre. With ARPG everyone expects to go Bionic Murderhobo on whoever quest givers point at. With RPG you get different options and clever solutions "Is there a differen't way do do this?" is a common question in RPG games. With ARPG the big question in game is "How to I kill face harder and faster?".

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If it is an RPG and you want POE to be like it, that would require a change to an entirely different genre.

Seems like you dont get my point here. I don´t want to turn PoE into an RPG. Im simply giving an example how Risk VS Reward / exploration and deterministic return COULD work.

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Super mario would be a better comparison.

I know its probably a shitpost. But please try at least and give a reason why SM would be a better comparison. But yeah SM has an awesome exploration system.

Okay i was observing the steamcharts for path of exile the last month and it seems like bestiary was the more popular league.
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https://steamcharts.com/app/238960#6m


Bestiary was played by 10.000 more players 1 month into the league than incursion.


So its seems like the argument that incursion is more loved does not really hold. Can we finally discuss how bestiary also was superior, and can we get it back? @GGG

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Lewnatic wrote:

I know its probably a shitpost. But please try at least and give a reason why SM would be a better comparison. But yeah SM has an awesome exploration system.

SM - player oneshots all enemies.
PoE - player oneshots all enemies.
Profit!