Thin line between Clever use of game Mechanis and Exploit. Monstrous Treasure shenanigans.

"

Cataca wrote:

A clever use of a game mechanic was lightning arrow and frostwall. GGG deemed said interaction as too strong for game balance reasons not because it was an exploit. No-one was banned for it, like noone will get banned for using double dipping.

A clever use of a game mechanic was using a quadrillion self-flagelations and double dip the shit out of stuff with soul mantles. The bug here was the lack of a limit on self flagelation, but that is something that a player cannot be aware of, hence impossible to punish.

So, as long as you have a sliver of inteligence, actually determining what is, or isnt an exploit is not hard whatsoever. If you cant do that, chances are you are already dead, because you tried to stick a fork in a electricity outlet, or randomly forgot to breathe.

I'm curious what you think about using vaal rain of orbs to completely immobilize guardian of the phoenix for the entire fight.

Is this an exploit and if so, is it bannable since you seem to understand GGG's reasoning.

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Nephalim wrote:

"

Cataca wrote:

A clever use of a game mechanic was lightning arrow and frostwall. GGG deemed said interaction as too strong for game balance reasons not because it was an exploit. No-one was banned for it, like noone will get banned for using double dipping.

A clever use of a game mechanic was using a quadrillion self-flagelations and double dip the shit out of stuff with soul mantles. The bug here was the lack of a limit on self flagelation, but that is something that a player cannot be aware of, hence impossible to punish.

So, as long as you have a sliver of inteligence, actually determining what is, or isnt an exploit is not hard whatsoever. If you cant do that, chances are you are already dead, because you tried to stick a fork in a electricity outlet, or randomly forgot to breathe.

I'm curious what you think about using vaal rain of orbs to completely immobilize guardian of the phoenix for the entire fight.

Is this an exploit and if so, is it bannable since you seem to understand GGG's reasoning.

If anything, that is going to get patched if it is deemed to strong. But did you see anyone get banned for using decoy totem to trivilaize fights?

No?

You are good to go.

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Nephalim wrote:

I'm curious what you think about using vaal rain of orbs to completely immobilize guardian of the phoenix for the entire fight.

Is this an exploit and if so, is it bannable since you seem to understand GGG's reasoning.

I'd be curious on the results of a poll whether people consider it bannable or not. My bet is majority will say it is a bug that isn't fixed yet and not bannable.

"

almostdead wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

I'm curious what you think about using vaal rain of orbs to completely immobilize guardian of the phoenix for the entire fight.

Is this an exploit and if so, is it bannable since you seem to understand GGG's reasoning.

I'd be curious on the results of a poll whether people consider it bannable or not. My bet is majority will say it is a bug that isn't fixed yet and not bannable.

Worth noting there is a difference between bannable and whether or not bans will actually occur.

Chris clearly stated MT was bannable but no one was banned.
GGG has never made a stance that league stone duping was bannable but many were banned.

This is precisely the ambiguity that is so troubling.

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Cataca wrote:

So, as long as you have a sliver of inteligence, actually determining what is, or isnt an exploit is not hard whatsoever. If you cant do that, chances are you are already dead, because you tried to stick a fork in a electricity outlet, or randomly forgot to breathe.

You don't need to remember to breath! (under normal circumstances)

Breathing is an autonomic process controlled by the grey matter in your spine, the same as reflexes or conditioned reflexes.

Its to do with the lvls of co2 in your blood.

Only time this dosnt occur is if you are breathing air with very low or no lvls of co2, ie from an oxygen tank or maybe a decompression chamber.

If the reason for this (that you are referring to) is actually oxygen poisoning, then the subject could very well be disorientated enough to not recognize an exploit but would probably be dead before they could make much use of it.

GGG would probably still ban them because of the tos but I doubt they would care at that point.

Asset loading is not a game mechanic. This is clearly an exploit.

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Cataca wrote:

...So, as long as you have a sliver of inteligence, actually determining what is, or isnt an exploit is not hard whatsoever...

I mostly agree, but I think the difference in opinions in this thread is not "Is this an exploit?" but "Is this a bannable exploit?"

And that is very much up for debate. Example: Spawning masters and vaal side areas (used to) increase instance loading time significantly enough for people hunting said spawns to just restart the instance if it did not contain them.
I believe that is very much an exploit. But I also believe it is not bannable, although it contains the elements cited by proponents of the "ban them" side in this discussions:
- definitely not intended by the devs
- only known to few players, thus creating a significant (economic) benefit for them
- not really a "game mechanic" like, for example double dipping or RoA boss cheesing.

So, the whole thread can be focused on these questions:
1. Was using [example: zone loading times] an exploit or clever use of game mechanics?
2. Was using it a bannable offense? Why or why not?
3. Should players have known this is bannable before GGG says something definite about it?

Both sides can make good arguments, but it remains a matter of opinion, so if either side says "DEFINITELY this way, anyone who is not a moron can see that", they are being very destructive in this debate.

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SisterBlister wrote:

I mostly agree, but I think the difference in opinions in this thread is not "Is this an exploit?" but "Is this a bannable exploit?"

And that is very much up for debate. Example: Spawning masters and vaal side areas (used to) increase instance loading time significantly enough for people hunting said spawns to just restart the instance if it did not contain them.
I believe that is very much an exploit. But I also believe it is not bannable, although it contains the elements cited by proponents of the "ban them" side in this discussions:
- definitely not intended by the devs
- only known to few players, thus creating a significant (economic) benefit for them
- not really a "game mechanic" like, for example double dipping or RoA boss cheesing.

The exploit in question, back in the day was stated to be bannable. I cant really recall the exact phrasing, because it was such a long time ago, but it was along the lines of:

"If you do it excessively, you are hurting the servers and we can and will totally ban you for that. We wont immediately, but be warned."

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SisterBlister wrote:

So, the whole thread can be focused on these questions:

"

1. Was using [example: zone loading times] an exploit or clever use of game mechanics?

It exploits a weakness in the system. There is no game mechanic involved.

"

2. Was using it a bannable offense? Why or why not?

Yes.

"

3. Should players have known this is bannable before GGG says something definite about it?

Yes.

"

SisterBlister wrote:

Both sides can make good arguments, but it remains a matter of opinion, so if either side says "DEFINITELY this way, anyone who is not a moron can see that", they are being very destructive in this debate.

There is no debate to be had, if the discussion revolves around "clever use of game mechanics" and said exploit doesnt use a game mechanic.

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Cataca wrote:

...There is no debate to be had...

Why are you still here then? To tell everyone else their opinion is wrong? Only religious people do that. But then, such a black-vs-white world view is so much more comforting than the real world, isn't it?

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SisterBlister wrote:

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Cataca wrote:

...There is no debate to be had...

Why are you still here then? To tell everyone else their opinion is wrong? Only religious people do that. But then, such a black-vs-white world view is so much more comforting than the real world, isn't it?

At least quote the entire sentence. What a low effort rebuke.

You cant have a discussion about "clever game mechanics" if what you are discussing does not actually involve a game mechanic.