Lair Map -> Boss needs balancing

"

Crackmonster wrote:

You know Fruz, don't think anyone here are complaining about his balance after blind rushing him like an idiot and dying a deserved first death.

I'm pretty sure that some do.

I mean, some comments clearly showed that they didn't understand the mechanics of the fight, or at least not completely.
Plus the current meta is all about going as fast as possible and many just go for dps + leech and ignore most mechanics that the game has to offer in term of monster design.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I've no idea where you pulled your ideas from either, but you missed the point.

I think you (totally) missed my point. Your "balance base build" assumes a certain type of build and you call other type of build "specialized".

"

Crackmonster wrote:

It doesn't matter if "can do", what is being talked about is balance, balance that means power in relation to rest of game.

Correct. But you (totally) missed my question: From which "other side" (player build wise) should the game be balanced? Should the game then be "normalized" so that builds not conforming to this meta become irrelevant? You didnt answer that at all.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I don't really care if anything less than 1 shot can be "facetanked" with instant leech, or do so broken dps that he dies before being a threat, that's actually quite irrelevant and just bla bla talk compared to trying to balance things properly. And also you know they want to do away with instant leech, and too good scaling damage etc so you know they have no concern for the irrelevant points you make!

Maybe try understand my point before making assumptions. I wasnt talking about leech or 1shot or "broken DPS". As has been pointed out leech doesnt even work vs the wolf form.


Edit: typo

"

Zrevnur wrote:

Maybe try understand my point before making assumptions. I wasnt talking about leech or 1shot or "broken DPS". As has been pointed out leech doesnt even work vs the wolf form.

I think he was refering to me.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I've no idea where you pulled your ideas from either, but you missed the point.

I think you (totally) missed my point. Your "balance base build" assumes a certain type of build and you call other type of build "specialized".

"

Crackmonster wrote:

It doesn't matter if "can do", what is being talked about is balance, balance that means power in relation to rest of game.

Correct. But you (totally) missed my question: From which "other side" (player build wise) should the game be balanced? Should the game then be "normalized" so that builds not conforming to this meta become irrelevant? You didnt answer that at all.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I don't really care if anything less than 1 shot can be "facetanked" with instant leech, or do so broken dps that he dies before being a threat, that's actually quite irrelevant and just bla bla talk compared to trying to balance things properly. And also you know they want to do away with instant leech, and too good scaling damage etc so you know they have no concern for the irrelevant points you make!

Maybe try understand my point before making assumptions. I wasnt talking about leech or 1shot or "broken DPS". As has been pointed out leech doesnt even work vs the wolf form.

1. No i don't. I use the word specialized just like it is meant to be used. Seriously i am losing my patience with these forums. In this case i would call a build specialized if it counters bleed and phys damage(specialized against the boss) vs build without particular specialization in anything that counters the specific fight - but in the end even that is irrelevant i'm just trying to throw you a bone really, because in the end you don't want game balanced around logging into a new char to handle content this or that, maybe outside of the very endgame like a map boss your particular build has a weakness to, uber atziri, shaper etc, in general you don't want a game were you are forced to swap characters often because the game is balanced around that. Yet here you are arguing for that. And before you say "no i am not", realize that what you said and what you meant isn't always the same, and when thinking consequences through you may arrive at unexpected ends, but don't expect that others haven't already been there and therefore can see what you are pointing towards.

2. It is obvious isn't it. It should be balanced around builds working as intended, not builds with grossly OP dps that almost instantly kills anything even end-bosses, nor ones that completely override boss mechanics by instant leech paired with enormous dps. When things are too powerful you nerf them, when things are too weak you boost them. This boss is too powerful and as such for everything the game is balanced around this will be out of balance therefore you nerf it. It really is as simple as 1+1=2. You can't see that this boss is not as balanced as other bosses? I don't need to explain that to you, it's obvious, if you still don't believe me come back with proof because i wasted enough time on nothing already.

3. I was answering to more than you with that, honestly can't even remember if you also had something that touched on and don't really care either. Furthermore i was referring to his cone attack whichs is extremely nasty but can just be leeched through. Ahh i fell into your trap of arguing against something random coz you didn't understand what i was saying. I was talking about general design principles.

"

There's a common idea among many great thinkers throughout time, particularly shamans, that they kind of dive into some "other" kind of ether, or uncover something that already exists, and bring it back and into existence in this plane. Plato referred to this plane as a "shadow" of a "perfect" god-like reality that existed. He spoke of visiting this plane, that through an enlightened mind you could discover its existence and experience it.. but that when you came back to those held in the chains of this shadow like reality, you would be troubled to teach them of what you saw, because they are too busy arguing over the forms, sizes, and the pointless attributes of an inferior reality.

I laugh my ass off when i read this, even though i've read it before. I just fucking cba arguing with this 'ish and it's like that. Take or or leave it, i said what i mean and doesn't make it any more right or wrong if i spend an hour arguing with those who don't comprehend.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

3. I was answering to more than you with that, honestly can't even remember if you also had something that touched on and don't really care either.

Ok, no point trying to answer my questions/posts if you dont read them I guess. If you dont want to answer my questions you can just say so. Or maybe you are trying to say this here.

I have answered your questions i think.

The part where i don't care comes in when you reply with irrelevant things and i'm like:

Serious? this again?

Sorry mate, I am in bad mood today apparently and have no tolerance.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

I have answered your questions i think.

These are the questions I asked:

"

From which "other side" (player build wise) should the game be balanced? Should the game then be "normalized" so that builds not conforming to this meta become irrelevant?

You did write some generic stuff about the first question but I am not sure if you addressed the question or sth else. In any case it didnt properly answer my question == I still have no idea what kind of build spectrum you want the game to be balanced around.

No, i actually did answer that quite accurately because there is no X balance, no fixed always constant number to achieve, it is a relative principle.

"

It should be balanced around builds working as intended, not builds with grossly OP dps that almost instantly kills anything even end-bosses, nor ones that completely override boss mechanics by instant leech paired with enormous dps.

With further explanation to help understand:

"

When things are too powerful you nerf them, when things are too weak you boost them. This boss is too powerful and as such for everything the game is balanced around this will be out of balance therefore you nerf it.

"

Crackmonster wrote:

No, i actually did answer that quite accurately because there is no X balance, no fixed always constant number to achieve, it is a relative principle.

"

It should be balanced around builds working as intended, not builds with grossly OP dps that almost instantly kills anything even end-bosses, nor ones that completely override boss mechanics by instant leech paired with enormous dps.

Its only an (incomplete) answer to the first question. As I said it does not tell me what kind of build spectrum the game should be balanced around. You just exclude builds with high DPS and high leech.

Example: Armour/Block/Evasion build gets murdered by beam/degen boss => nerf beam boss? Or is armour/block build not part of your spectrum?

It actually does, it means that devs should be(and are), working to bring the main body of the game within an area of balance where it feels good.

That principle results in that bosses that are doing way more damage(or maybe its delivery method, reaction time etc) than other bosses are not feeling well balanced, such as this boss.

So you should see as has been directly and indirectly said many many many times here, it matters what the rest of the game is balanced like. For that reason all i needed to say from the start was, and have said many times, "This boss is out of line compared to other bosses in game.". I don't need to say anything more everything is contained in that line.